INTERVIEW – For historian Vincent Duclert, the world must recognize that Azerbaijan’s war against Nagorno-Karabakh is a continuation of the genocide that began in the 19th century.
Former director of the Raymond Aron Center (CESPRA), historian Vincent Duclert, was notably responsible for the report on France’s role in the 2021 genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda. He publishes Armenia, a genocide without end and the world that is extinct Editions des Belles Lettres (2023).
LE FIGARO. – At a time when Nagorno-Karabakh is in trouble the end of his existence You publish a paper on the topic “endless genocide » to which the Armenian people in the Caucasus are subject. What motivated you to write about the fate of this people?
VINCENT DUCLERT. – I personally have no connection to Armenians. But as a historian, I consider it my duty to explain that what these people experience questions all of us. They carry the universal story within them. On the one hand, because they were victims of the world’s first genocide, thanks to which we were able to understand what a genocidal process is – which for them began in 1894 with the massacres in Anatolia and Constantinople.
On the other hand, because they have absolutely incredible knowledge about reconstruction. What the small self-proclaimed Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh, unrecognized and very isolated, has demonstrated for 33 years is more than just resilience. Even though they were denied any future on earth, the Artsakhiotes (Artsakh is the Armenian name for Nagorno-Karabakh, editor’s note) gained new horizons through books, art and language. It’s absolutely wonderful. If we give up on them, we give up the universal knowledge that they carry.
Why do you say that current events are a continuation of the Armenian Genocide?
My thesis is that this particularly violent war of aggression is accompanied by a war of extermination in continuity with the genocide of 1915.
Let’s remember the story. On the eve of World War I, Baku (today’s capital of Azerbaijan, editor’s note), populated by Turkish-speaking Muslims, was part of the territorial and ideological horizon of the Young Turks, a nationalist political movement that sought to transform the multi-sectarian and multinational Ottoman Empire to a nation-state with a single Turkish race. Armenia is then divided into two entities: two-thirds in the Ottoman Empire, called Western Armenia, and one-third in the Russian Empire, Eastern Armenia.
The Armenian Genocide, which began in 1890 with various pogroms, reached its climax in 1915. Western Armenia was wiped out. At the end of World War I, the Allied victory raised hopes of redress as they declared a crime against humanity – a term that appeared for the first time – and promised justice to the Young Turks. But the Treaty of Sèvres was abandoned. And Mustafa Kemal, taking power, completes the genocide. After Nagorno-Karabakh, the complete annihilation of Armenia is the next prospect. The Armenians of Armenia will lose their rump state, which is roughly equivalent to Eastern Armenia, which emerged from the former Russian Empire. It will sooner or later be attacked by the Turkish-Azerbaijani axis.
We have a duty to say what is happening: we are witnessing a war of annihilation.
By what signs do you recognize this?
The elements I provide in my book are undeniable. Since 2020, during the “44 Day War”, there have been several “red flags” showing that the war of aggression was a war of annihilation. Documented war crimes; Slogans calling for targeted targeting of Armenians; Torture of military prisoners. In a simple territorial war you don’t call the enemy absolutely evil!
More recently, the closure of the Lachin Corridor last December is actually a continuation of the genocide. This road, the only route connecting the enclave to the rest of the world, has been blocked by Azerbaijanis, which has worsened over the months and left the 120,000 Artsakhiots facing starvation. Eventually, Baku changed tactics and attacked with weapons, allowing residents to escape. But it struck me that in the photos of the refugees, I saw the children of Nagorno-Karabakh completely emaciated and with sunken cheeks. The deliberate desire to starve a specific population falls under Article II of the Geneva Convention, which describes genocide as “a crime committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious person.” We are witnessing a 130 year old demolition company.
What reaction would you have hoped to see from the world and from France to these events?
Emmanuel Macron had very clear words to condemn Azerbaijan. But states make politics, they don’t make morals. To observe the continuation of genocide, the international community would have to take legal action. However, the current balance of power in the Caucasus is absolutely not in favor of the West. The historian compares data and makes observations. Everyone has their role. Especially since there is a lack of understanding for the situation of the Armenians in the West. This is largely due to the denialism of Turks and Azerbaijanis that is progressing in our countries.
Is Holocaust denial really making progress?
Yes ! Denial of the gas chambers is only held by Iran and a few Islamic countries, and even then it is not their absolute basis. The Armenian Genocide is the identity matrix of Turks and Azerbaijanis. Their entire diplomacy is mobilized and they are taking legal action in all directions against any reference to the Armenian Genocide. These are extremely powerful networks: remember that Turkey was able to prevent the United States from recognizing this genocide until 2021, even though this was part of the campaign promises of most American presidents!
At the very least, our fellow citizens must develop a sense of history, which is the strength of democracies. You also need to remember what great pages of French history are connected with the Armenians. It’s not just about doing justice to these people who, despite everything, have developed extraordinary resilience that deserves to be honored. But genocide is a crime against humanity: humanity is affected. An interesting memory: At the end of the 19th century in France, big names like Jaurès, Péguy and Cauchin mobilized to denounce the “war of extermination” taking place in Armenia. A few months later, however, the same people came forward to defend Dreyfus. Péguy will say clearly: we could not save the Armenians, we will save Dreyfus. Certainly their fight for the Armenians will have helped them become more engaged.
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