In an interview with Gian Marco Chiocci, chief news editor at RaiUno, Francisco said that we should not get used to war. He confirmed his trip to Dubai from December 1-3 for the COP28 global climate summit. His verdict on the World Synod was positive and he confided that there should be more space for women in the Church, but without ordaining them; He doesn’t think this will help abolish celibacy for priests.
Mário Galgano – Vatican City
For Pope Francis, the global escalation of the war that broke out in Israel and Palestine is “a danger” that could very well spread, but he hopes that this does not happen, trusting in “human wisdom”. He said this in a long interview with the director of the “Tg1” news program, Gian Marco Chiocci, broadcast on RaiUno on the evening of Wednesday, November 1st.
Israel and Gaza
Regarding what is happening in the Middle East, the Pope said: “Every war is a defeat. Nothing can be resolved with war. I repeat: nothing. Everything is won through peace, through dialogue. They invaded the kibbutzim and took hostages. You killed someone. And then the reaction. The Israelis go and take the hostages, save them. In war, one slap provokes another. One hits hard and the other hits even harder and so on. War is a defeat. I see this as another defeat. It turns out that two peoples have to live together. This would be the intelligent solution: two peoples, two States. Let us think of the Oslo Accords: two border states and Jerusalem with a special status.”
“But the biggest problem is still the weapons industry.”
Francis recalled last week’s prayer for peace and reiterated that the world is living in a “very dark hour”. You can’t think clearly and it’s one of the darkest times. Since the last world war, from 1945 to today, one defeat has followed another, because wars have not stopped since then. “But the biggest problem is still the weapons industry. A person who knows about investments and who I met at a meeting told me that the investments that yield the most money today are weapons factories,” said the Pope.
The leader of the Catholic Church said that he hears from religious people in Gaza every day by phone. “The Egyptian vice-priest, Father Yussuf, calls me every day and tells me: ‘It’s terrible, the last thing is that they bombed the hospital, but they respect us in the parish where we have 563 people, all Christians and also some Muslims. Sick children cared for by Mother Teresa’s nuns. There are 563 people in this small parish. Every day I try to accompany them.’ Right now, thank God, the Israel Defense Forces respect this community.”
Candles in Warsaw to honor Israelis killed after Hamas attack
Getting used to war and anti-Semitism
“I remember – the Pope continued – a very difficult moment at the beginning of my pontificate, when the war in Syria broke out so violently and I held an act of prayer in the square where Christians were praying and Muslims were also placing a carpet and bringing prayers. That was a very difficult time. For me it’s a bad thing, but then – and this is not a nice thing to say – you get used to it, unfortunately you get used to it. We don’t need to get used to it.”
“The world is at war, but the arms industry is behind it.”
And regarding a possible escalation in the world, he said: “That would be the end of many things and many lives. I think human wisdom prevents these things. Yes, there is a possibility, but… and we are affected by this war because this conflict between Israel and Palestine affects the Holy Land, Jerusalem. But we are also affected by Ukraine because it is close. But there are many other wars that don’t affect us: Kivu, Yemen, Myanmar with the Rohingya, who are martyrs. The world is at war, but the arms industry is behind it.”
Francis also spoke about anti-Semitism, which “unfortunately remains hidden.” We see this, for example, in young people “who do something here and there”. It is true that anti-Semitism is very widespread at the moment and it is not always enough to mention the Holocaust that Jews experienced in World War II: “These 6 million dead who were enslaved, the whole thing is not over yet. Unfortunately he didn’t pass. I don’t know how to explain it and I have no explanation for it, it’s a fact that I see and I don’t like it.”
In a square in Kyiv
The war in Ukraine
Asked about the Ukrainian reaction to the Holy See’s peace initiatives, Francis replied: “I think of the Ukrainian people, we must not condemn them today. The Ukrainian people are a martyr people; suffered persecution during Stalin’s time, very severe persecution. They are a martyred people. I read a memorial book about it and the martyrdom was terrible, let’s think about Siberia…. It was a people who suffered so much, and whatever makes them go through that again now, I understand them, and I welcomed President Zelensky, I understand, but we need peace. I say: Stop! Let’s stop for a moment and look for a peace agreement, agreements are the real solution to this problem. For all of us.”
The Pope recalled: “On the second day of the war in Ukraine I went to the Russian embassy, I felt I had to go there and I said I was ready to go to Putin if that would help. The ambassador was a good man, now he is no longer in office. He is a Russian official. And from that moment on I had a good conversation with the Russian embassy. When I called the prisoners, I went there and they released them, they even released some of the Azov group. In short, the embassy did an excellent job of releasing people who could be released. But the dialogue ended there. Lavrov (Russian Foreign Minister, editor’s note) then wrote to me: ‘Thank you if you want to come, but that is not necessary.’ I wanted to go both ways.”
File image: The Pope and some refugees on Lesbos during his visit on December 5, 2021
The tragedy of migrants
“I am the son of migrants”, said the Pope, “but in Argentina there are 46 million of us, I believe, and only the indigenous people are 6 million, nothing more. The others are all migrants. It is truly a country of migration: Italians, Spaniards, Ukrainians, Russians, people from the Middle East. And those from the Middle East we call Turks in Argentina because they came from the great Ottoman Empire with Turkish passports, and I’m used to living in a country of migrants. My father worked at the Bank of Italy and emigrated to Argentina, stayed there and died there, he had a family there. For me, the experience of migration is something very existential, not the tragedy of today. There was bad post-war migration, but today it is still a very dramatic thing and there are five countries that suffer most from migration: Cyprus, Greece, Malta, Italy and Spain. They are the ones who welcome the most people. I always recommend reading a book written by one of these migrants who waited more than three years to go from Ghana to Spain: it’s called ‘Little Brother’, ‘Hemanito’ in Spanish.”
“I am the son of migrants.”
It’s a small book that talks about the cruelty of migration. What we saw recently in Calabria was terrible, said Francisco. Europe must show solidarity with these five countries, which cannot accept everyone, and European governments must begin dialogue. “There are small empty villages with ten, fifteen elderly people who need people to work there,” said the Pope. There is a migration policy with the stages of migration: welcoming them, accompanying them, supporting them and training them to work. “They should fit together,” Francis added. And such a migration policy costs money. “But I’m thinking about Sweden, which did a good job during the times of Latin American dictatorships… A migration policy must be constructive, for the good of the country and for the good of the people and also for the entire country. Europe. I thought it was good that the President of the European Commission traveled to Lampedusa to see: I think it’s good because she’s trying to take charge of that.”
Women in church
“Here in the Vatican there are more women working, for example the deputy in the governorship of the Vatican City State is a woman, a nun, and the governorship has a more general role, but it is she who has the responsibility. There are six cardinals and six lay people on the Economic Council, and five of these six lay people are women.”
Then there are women instead of “monsignors” who head a secretariat – that is, they occupy a management position. He also listed the Vatican institutions: the Dicastery for Consecrated Life, the Dicastery for the Integral Development of Man and there are three women on the Commission for the Election of Bishops, “because women understand things that we men do not understand.” Women have a special sensitivity to certain situations and are needed “to be included in the normal work of the church.” Regarding the ordination of women, Francis said:
“This is a theological problem, not an administrative problem. A woman can do anything in the church, even governor, no problem. But from the theological, ministerial point of view, they are different things: the Petrine principle, that of jurisdiction, and the Marian principle, which is the most important because the Church is a woman, the Church is a bride, the Church is not a man, she is a woman. It takes a theology to understand this, and the power of the female church and women in the church is stronger and more important than that of male ministers. Mary is more important than Peter because the Church is female. But if we want to reduce this to functionalism, we lose.”
Synod and celibacy
For Francis, the result of the Synod on synodality was positive. Everything was discussed “in complete freedom”:
“And this is a wonderful thing and we managed to produce a final document that must be studied in this second part for the next October session, like the family one, this is also a synod in two phases. I believe that we have reached the very exercise of synodality that Paul VI. at the end of the Council because he recognized that the Church of the West had lost the synodal dimension that the Church of the East has”.
Responding to a question about priestly celibacy, he explained: “It is a positive law, not a natural law: in the Eastern Catholic Churches, married men can be ordained priests, while in the Western Churches there is a discipline that dates back to the 19th century. 12. The century was established. But it is a law that can be easily repealed. I don’t think this helps. Because the problem is different. That doesn’t help. It is true that it would eliminate a very bad thing that some priests have: they are “virgins”. I don’t know if you can say this in Italian, this spirituality of virgins. The priest must be a father, he must be integrated into a community. Sometimes I get very worried when the priest looks inside himself and turns into a super figure. I don’t like that because then he loses contact. I remember once meeting a 65 year old man, I think he was a pastor of three small villages in the mountains, each village had five hundred souls. I asked, ‘How do you do that? Do you know the people?” He smiled and said, “I even know the names of people’s dogs.” These priests who are incorporated are true fathers of the community. If the priest seems a little ‘authoritarian,’ we lose.”
On the topic of homosexual couples, Francis responded: “The Church welcomes people, all of them, and does not ask who they are. Then everyone grows and matures in their Christian affiliation. It’s true that today it’s a bit fashionable to talk about it. The church welcomes everyone. Another thing is when there are organizations that want to enter. The principle is this: the church accepts all who can be baptized. Organizations cannot be named. People do.”
Abuse in the church and outside it
Francisco then explained, in an interview with the director of Tg1, that he supported the work of Benedict XVI. Continue. “There was a lot of cleaning. They were all cases of abuse and even some from the Curia were sent away. Pope Benedict XVI was courageous in this regard. He took control of the problem and took several steps and then completed it. This continues. Abuse, whether abuse of conscience, sexual abuse, or anything else, cannot be tolerated. It’s contrary to the gospel, the gospel is service, not abuse, and we see so many bishops’ conferences that have done a good job investigating sexual abuse, but also others.”
There was no previous culture that took action against abuse, especially outside the church: statistics he received from an international organization that deals with the issue said that 42 to 46 percent of abuse occurs in the family or neighborhood, “and people have the habit of covering it up. This is ugly.
The pope acknowledged that the Church has done a lot in the fight against pedophilia, “but there is still much to be done”.
The most difficult moment and the church in the future
Asked what the most difficult moment of his pontificate was, the Pope replied: “Maybe it was difficult and difficult when I had to take measures against the war in Syria, that thing in the square that I said. I didn’t know what to do, it was very difficult. I wasn’t used to something like this and I was also afraid of making mistakes and causing damage. Was difficult. There were also easy and not so easy moments. But the Lord always helped me to resolve it or at least to be patient and wait for the resolution.”
As for the Church after his pontificate, he said: “The Lord knows, but there is always the melancholy of the past. She will come too. It is present in institutions and also in the church. They are those who want to return, they are the ‘late ones’. Who do not accept that the church is moving forward, that it is on the move. Because the church is always on the move, it must grow.”
And the way of being Church must also grow with the three principles of Vincent de Lérins, the father of the first century: it must grow from the roots. “From the root, just as the sap grows in the tree, but always linked to the root”, explained the Pope. A church that breaks with its roots goes back and loses that juice of healthy tradition, which is not conservatism: “Tradition grows. And she has to move on. Consider, for example, the death penalty. Today we say that the death penalty is morally unacceptable. We also grow up in slavery. Slaves used to be normal. Today they are no longer normal. Moral awareness also grows. Possession of nuclear weapons is the same thing.”
When asked what he was afraid of, the Pope replied: “Little fears come. Let this happen, let that happen. The war in the Holy Land scares me. These people don’t know how this will end. But it is resolved before the Lord. Not that the fears disappear. But they remain, let’s say, in a human form. It’s good to be afraid.”
When asked if some people called him a “left-wing pope,” Francis replied: “I don’t like it when people talk about the right or the left. These are labels that are not real. The real attributions should be: is he consistent, is he not consistent? Are the things he suggests consistent with the roots or are they strange things? Think of São Paulo VI. He got all kinds of labels because he was an innovator.”
And he was nothing leftist, nothing communist, said Francisco. It’s not easy to understand what this means, he admitted.
COP28
“I’m going to Dubai for COP28”
“Yes, I am flying to Dubai. I think I will be leaving December 1st to 3rd. I will stay there for three days. I remember when I was in Strasbourg, at the European Parliament, and President Hollande sent the Minister for the Environment, Ségolène Royal, to welcome me and she asked me: ‘But are you preparing anything on the environment? Are you doing this before the meeting in Paris?´. I called some scientists who hurried: ‘Laudato Si’ came out before Paris. And the meeting in Paris was the best of all. After Paris, everyone retreated and it takes courage to move forward in this area. After ‘Laudato Si’, five important oil authorities requested an appointment. Everyone justify yourselves – this takes courage. A country that is an island in the Pacific Ocean is buying land in Samoa to move to because it will cease to exist within twenty years because the sea level is rising. But we don’t believe that. There’s still time to stop doing this. Our future is at stake. The future of our children and grandchildren. We need some accountability. I would like to talk about the fishermen of San Benedetto del Tronto. The good guys came to me and told me that I didn’t know how many tons of plastic they were taking and not throwing back into the ocean.”
They would lose money to “fix” and clean up the sea a little. Humanity has dealt with the preservation of creation in an ugly way.
Francisco also confided that the last time he was by the sea, which he “likes so much”, was in 1975. And he recalled that before discovering his religious vocation, he was engaged to “a very good girl. She worked in cinema. She was good. Then I met her again as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, in a parish with her husband and children.”
faith and health
When asked if his faith ever wavered, the Pope replied: “In the sense of a loss, no. But in the sense that you don’t feel it and you walk in dark paths: Where is the Lord? Do we feel that the Lord is hidden, where is he alone? Or we retreat and move away from it. And where are you, Lord? And why don’t you solve it? And you hear the Lord say inside, because I don’t have a magic wand. The Lord is not Mandrake, no. He is something different.
Regarding his health, he says: “I have a knee problem that is slowly improving. Now I can walk well, then I had two abdominal surgeries: the first for diverticulitis in the transverse colon, they removed a piece and then what happens when they open the abdomen. And the last one I had surgery. They cleaned it up, I saw the movie. All that was missing was the soap, so to speak. They washed off the adhesions. And now I’m fine. I can eat anything.”
Skin
“Between Maradona and Messi, I prefer Pelé”
Finally, the Pope answered the question about who he prefers between the two great Argentine players Maradona and Messi. “I will say a third: Pelé. They are the three I am tracking. Maradona was a great player. But as a person he failed. The poor man died because those who praised him did not help him. He came to me in the first year of my pontificate and then the poor man died. It’s strange: so many professionals end up badly. Even in boxing. Messi is very correct. He’s a gentleman. But for me, of these three, the great man is Pelé. A man with heart. I spoke to Pelé, I met him once on a plane when I was in Buenos Aires, we talked. A man of such great humanity. All three are great. Each with its own peculiarity. Messi is doing well at the moment. And Pele was good.”
(Vatican news)