A year ago, Oleg Orlov warned that peace at any price could be disastrous. “A fascist and victorious Russia will inevitably become a serious threat to the security of not only its neighbors but all of Europe,” he concluded in his column “They wanted fascism and they had it,” published in November 2022 in the French newspaper Media part. A year later, the veteran Russian activist was put on trial for this article by the same system, a “half-feudal, half-corrupt state capitalism,” that he denounced: Vladimir Putin’s regime.
Oleg Orlov (Moscow, 70 years old), co-president of the Memorial Center for the Defense of Rights – an institution created after the Kremlin disbanded its historic Center for the Defense of Human Rights in 2022 – was fined 150,000 rubles, about 1,500 euros, at the current poor exchange rate of the Russian currency. The activist appealed, as did the prosecution, which demanded three years in prison for him on the pretext that “he, together with Memorial, is undermining social stability.” Other dissidents – such as Alexei Gorinov, Ilya Yashin, Vladimir Kara-Murza and many other lesser-known figures – have been imprisoned before.
Next to the entrance to his house is menacing graffiti with the Z of the Russian army and the words “War against them.” Orlov, who has defended human rights for more than 40 years, from the death throes of the Soviet Union to oppression in the Caucasus, takes this in stride: He claims he never had any choice but to do what he thought was right.
Questions. Memorial has been committed to democracy in Russia for more than 30 years. Has it had any benefit?
Answer. I had no other option. I thought it was the right thing to resist the coup plotters of 1991; I thought it right to take part in drafting the laws for a new democratic Russia. Why should I lock myself in my private life and do nothing?
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Q Do you think Europe understands the Russians?
R. The future of Russia will largely be decided in the areas of Ukraine. And Putin’s victory there means the preservation of this regime, which I consider to be fascist, for many years. It is very difficult for Europeans to imagine that people would be imprisoned for many years for taking to the streets. Now a private conversation is enough. Recently, a woman spoke positively about Zelensky in a spa dining room. Someone reported her and she was handed over to the Counter-Extremism Center. So before concluding that Russian society is not protesting, one must realize that there is a very harsh totalitarian regime here. This is completely different than protesting in Madrid, Paris or Berlin.
Q In his article he compares the current Russian system with the dictatorships of Franco and Salazar. Do you expect changes in Russia?
R. I think the situation in Russia could be very similar to Spain and Portugal. When the dictator leaves power, he dies in some way. There is often a split between elites, as was the case in Spain. Some of these elites realize that it is no longer possible to continue on the course set by the dictator, and there are people who are beginning to lead the country towards a certain freedom. The role of the real opposition, and not just the political one, is very important here. The role of human rights activists, the real opposition and the trade unions is to put pressure on the government to take power now that the dictator is moving towards a real and not a fictitious democracy. As soon as the dictator disappears, reformers appear among the most unexpected people around him who want change in order to save themselves and so that the system does not collapse.
Q Salazar and Franco led their countries for 40 years. Franco died in bed without there being a revolution against him. And now Russians are being urged to protest against Putin as Europe imposes sanctions on them. Are they of any use?
R. I don’t have a clear answer as to whether they are right or wrong. It seems to me that Europe hasn’t given it much thought. It is naive to believe that sanctions will lead to the oligarchs’ overthrow of Putin. You have no chance. Do you want to divide the elites? Give them the opportunity to be removed from the sanctions list. This will gradually increase their division. As far as general sanctions are concerned, I don’t have a clear idea either. Russian citizens have difficulty traveling and feel uncomfortable in Europe. Do you want them to put their hands on their heads and try to overthrow Putin? In a totalitarian regime this is naive.
Oleg Orlov lays flowers at the Solovetsky monument in honor of victims of political repression in Moscow on October 29. EVGENIA NOVOZHENINA (Portal)
Q Now they are arresting not only political opponents, but also members of the pro-war ranks who have criticized them. Are you feeling war-weary?
R. Since 2022, there are many supporters of the war, but the number has decreased. The fatigue is obvious. If free speech had not been destroyed, if we had not been punished for speaking in the streets, mass discontent would be clearly visible. But many people are very afraid, remain silent or don’t want to think about it.
Q In his article he cites the myth that the Russians want a strong hand, a Stalin. Did this change?
R. The repression has intensified. Almost all independent organizations have been closed and more arrests and new punishments occur every week. I’m surprised that you gave me a lot of freedom and that I can grant you this interview. I am ready to speak openly with you, but 90% of Russians refuse to negotiate with a Western correspondent. They believe that the authorities will find out tomorrow and put them in prison.
Q They reiterate that it is currently impossible to hold a peaceful protest in Russia. The Wagner mutiny occurred in the summer. Maybe Putin doesn’t have everything under control?
R. I don’t think it has it. If someone had said before the Wagner uprising that there would be a military mutiny in Russia, no one would believe it. His uprising showed a lot: generals were missing and dismissed. The plane has exploded, everything seems to be back in order, but there is a clear fear of military statements. On the other hand, the suppression of peaceful demonstrations is dangerous not so much because of Wagner, but because there will be a desire to hold non-peaceful protests. Terrorism occurs, an armed response occurs, and the authorities intensify repression. An ever more brutal terror. The authorities are pushing Russia into this vicious circle.
Q He has denounced the liquidation of the justice system in Russia. In their sources, linguists confused the Jedi (from Star Wars) with nightclub DJs. How do you rate your judgment?
R. The accusations are stupid and meaningless, they were very poorly prepared. They don’t even try to properly formalize the charges in Russia, they believe that every accusation will lead to a guilty verdict. In any case, the judge in my case behaved, on the whole, decently. This accusation would have been dismissed in a normal court, but our courts are not independent for political reasons, they will do what is said from above.
Q How do you see future relations between Russians and Ukrainians?
R. I understand that part of Ukrainian civil society does not want to talk to any Russian. It’s painful for her. It will be very difficult relations, but maintaining ties between part of Russian civil society and part of Ukraine is a kind of guarantee for a future return to normal relations. But I understand that most Ukrainians are now cursing the Russians.
Q Ten years ago there was general enthusiasm in Russia over the occupation of Crimea. Putin said that some areas of other countries are Russian. If the Kremlin had easily won this war and the West looked the other way, do you think Putin would have gone further?
R. No matter what happens, he loses. He’s pushing the world toward nuclear war, and I suspect he’s insulated from reality. He is a dictator who, at the end of his dictatorship, has reached madness, not in the sense of mental illness, but in the sense of his separation from reality. He undoubtedly considers himself a historical figure, a man with a historical mission to revive the Russki Mir (Russian World), the Russian Empire, and not the Soviet Union. He foolishly thought that he would defeat Ukraine in three days, that the Ukrainian generals would overthrow “the drug addicts” – as the Kremlin calls the Ukrainian government – and take power into their own hands. In this hypothetical scenario, part of Russian society would have felt inspired.
Q In Spain, this happened more than a century ago with the independence of Cuba.
R. There is a cliché that our country consists of three brother peoples: the Ukrainian, the Belarusian and the Russian. Putin’s imperialism is based on a kind of cultural code that must be overcome. I’m afraid we’re still a generation away from getting over this.
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