Mariano Cúneo Libarona (Buenos Aires, 62 years old) is a member of the Argentine judge family. The son of a prosecutor and a judge, he entered the profession at age 18, graduated as a lawyer at age 22, and months later, as a court clerk, experienced an unusual first moment of power for his age: he defined who should be incarcerated serve effectively in prison. Forty years later, on an anniversary that marked the beginning of the era of a libertarian liberal as president, Cúneo Libarona was sworn in as justice minister. His first task was to prepare a memo with his central ideas that Javier Milei would present to visitors to the Plaza de los Dos Congresos in his inaugural speech.
According to Cúneo Libarona, Milei did not speak about justice – or corruption – due to lack of time. He focused on the economy and his dire diagnosis of the situation in the country. Two days later, Economy Minister Luis Caputo announced the 50 percent devaluation, a drastic adjustment by the state that eliminated subsidies for services and transportation that were expected to increase inflation and poverty.
While Security Minister Patricia Bullrich announced on Thursday afternoon a strict security protocol for the cuts and picketing of the social protests, Cúneo Libarona entered a meeting room in the ministry's central building to give its first interview with a member of the national executive.
– The memo for the President's speech aimed to highlight the separation of powers, the independence of the judiciary, its suitability, the urgent implementation of the new federal judicial system with the adversarial system, trial by jury, speedy trial and reasonable time, and the appointment of suitable ones Judges, an updated criminal code. There can be no justice given the vacancies she has. Our justice is very good, our judges are very good. Unfortunately, some judges tarnished and degraded the image. People cry out for justice, but what is the concept of justice sometimes? Let everyone go to prison? Justice means respecting the law.
Questions. If Milei's priority is to reduce inflation, what is yours?
Answer. Improve the image of justice and for justice to give society more answers to realize that this is a just country. Justice does not communicate well with society.
Q You said Milei is an economic libertarian and you are a judicial libertarian. What does that mean?
R. From 1770 onwards, authoritarianism and despotism disappeared. And there were many changes: in economics it was Adam Smith, in politics it was Montesquieu, Voltaire, Rosseau. In legal matters, Cesare Beccaria, author of Crimes and Punishments, fundamentally changed the vision by introducing separation of powers, separation of powers, freedom and respect. This goes beyond the Constitution of the United States, the Declaration of the Rights of Man, and from it emerges a new idea of human freedom: freedom of speech, freedom of functioning. Free will triumphs over determinism and rights are protected. The Constitution was about protecting the rights of the accused, but the Magna Carta of our time is specifically about protecting the rights of the victim. Therefore, when Milei insists on respecting the 1853 Constitution, he says that they respect the rule of law in legal terms.
Q Did you meet Milei at Corporación América (airport magnate Eduardo Eurnekian's company) or at the América Air Channel (where Eurnekian also has a small stake)?
R. For the first time in my life I saw Javier Milei in Aeropuertos. I was a director and lawyer of the company and Javier was a very attentive and hierarchical person who worked in the investment area. I dealt with Eduardo Eurnekián and his nephews, who were directors and important shareholders. I just had a friendly relationship and knew that he, along with Nicolás Posse, was a very respected person in project analysis. [actual jefe de Gabinete de ministros de la Nación] and they worked in a very respected team within the company, but I couldn't get over this deal with him. I was also the director of Canal América and he went to the show Intratables and I went to the show Animales Sueltos. One day I saw him invited to Animales Sueltos and out of respect I went up to him, greeted him, sat him on a chair and gave him something to drink or a glass of water. I told Alejandro Fantino, the driver, that he was an economist who was good at mathematical analysis and that he was an intellectual. But I didn't follow Javier. I am a lawyer who has been in court for 18 years and in the profession for more than 30 years. Many people appreciate me for my work and my academic career. Javier Milei asked for many references and called me based on those references.
Q Who did you ask for references?
R. Our group conducts a complete background check and biohistory of every person we recommend. Today I suggest an officer, I send him his resume and they check who he is, what his background is and what his mindset is. It is a very deep intake filter. And that was mine, first I had meetings with the young people in the team. To Santiago Caputo [uno de los principales asesores de Milei y especialista en comunicación] I brought him my work on libertarianism in legal matters and respect for the Constitution. I have written more than ten books, am a dean at a university and a full professor at several universities. I told them: “Look, everything Javier says, I have said before.” In 2021, I did a judicial reform project that I published in the legal magazine La Ley. We talked, but I wasn't convinced about going into politics. I had a very successful and renowned studio in the city of Buenos Aires, I was doing very well. They called me and called me because I had a lot of support. Javier saw that judges of the Supreme Court, judges of cassation, people from the courts and friends from airports had spoken well of me. On the long weekend after the primaries that Javier won, I told his team that I needed to go to my beach house to think about my life change, about coming into the state, about being a politically exposed person, about the newspapers, the persecution, the damage, my life, my family, my privacy. But it was raining, I stayed in Buenos Aires and on Monday [21 de agosto] I went to the cinema and while watching a boring movie, I wondered what my father would say in this situation. And then I said, “Let’s go.” Dad would like it, I was excited [se le quiebra la voz].
Q Why would your father have liked it?
R. Having worked as a prosecutor in the Criminal Division for many years, he was a very respected judge and would have liked to see this happen. Dad died two years ago. I said to myself, “Come on, the country needs it.” I can do it? Am I physically, mentally and prepared for this? Yes, I think I can. Do I have the equipment for this? I can get suitable equipment. First I met Nicolás Posse from the airport – he knew me, I didn't remember him – and he gave me two or three good ideas about the procedures and the picket lines. I added looting and encroachment on federal property and saw that we were ideologically aligned. I met Javier and he told me: “Look, Mariano, I will give you a lot of freedom in your work, I will dedicate myself to what I can: the economy and the reduction of the size of the state.” All I ask you is the Constitution, that “To respect the separation of powers and the independence of the judiciary.” It was very moving for me to hear that. This is what I have been teaching at the faculty for 40 years. And he told me, “I ask you not to consider nepotism or politics when appointing judges.” are to found their homeland. And the third point was, “Enough of discrediting the courts, enough of political interference, enough of wars, enough of corruption.” I talked to my three brothers with whom I run the studio and started running the numbers. How do I get to the end of the month? How do I pay all my bills? I'm going to use up my savings, I told myself. I don't even know how much I'll earn here, I'm not interested.
Q Until recently, it was $1.7 million (approximately $1,752 in the free offer).
R. Nothing else? I thought it would be more. In any case, I said that I would bring my money to cover my expenses: the monthly return on the fixed conditions that I have, I rented a property and my country house. I don't want anything: a Mercedes Benz or anything. And I have my driver from 35 years ago. I have love and trust in him. I'm not a money waster. On the weekends I enjoy sitting in a bar and reading EL PAÍS and other publications.
Q Don't you find it problematic that civil servants with such important tasks as yours have to donate their salaries or rely on their assets?
R. Look, I convince everyone who comes here with the same method: “From here you will take a huge car of honor. Silver, no. “You will lose money.” I'm looking for retirees or new retirees, young people from my court days or lawyers who have done well in their profession and can afford the luxuries that I have. To convince them, I ask them a question: What would your father say?
Q Milei won the elections with an anti-caste speech. How does this speech come together for someone like you, who is closely associated with the judges' family?
R. I have a legal background because it touched my life. There is no judge caste in Argentina. There is a legal career.
Q Why is there caste in politics and race in the judiciary?
R. At the age of 17, I started working for free for income reasons. Then I was a clerk, an officer, a first officer, a secretary, and that's how I grew. This is called a legal career. I think when Javier talks about political caste or business caste, I don't think he is referring to an area that concerns me personally.
Q But beyond your personal career, don’t you recognize caste in the judiciary?
R. No, at least in my time and in my training, this caste of judges does not exist. If there are certain lists of ideological thoughts in the judiciary today, they did not exist in my time. I am not a politician, I defend the law and the constitution. My party is quite similar to libertarian ideas. It is the party of the Constitution.
Q Were you close to a party?
R. Never. Here in Argentina, unfortunately, parties with ideas were never voted on. The people voted. There was a denaturalization of political ideology.
Q But has he always generally defined himself as liberal?
R. I have always been liberal out of respect for human rights.
Q This Ministry, by decision of the Minister of Justice León Arslanián [uno de los camaristas que juzgó a las Juntas Militares en 1985] Human rights was added and another justice minister, who also judged the panels, Ricardo Gil Lavedra, changed the name of the ministry in 1999 and called it justice and human rights. Now take away that nomenclature with the connotations it has. Why did you make this decision?
R. For many reasons. Because they, whom I respect and admire, may have done it for political or ideological reasons back then. I believe that human rights are contained in the word justice. It encompassed her. Human rights are much more than the absence of state terrorism, terrorism. Human rights are the poor man who goes to the park, wants to read and pray, and has his chest cut off because of his cell phone. Human Rights is a poor woman who is deceived, breaks into her house and takes her money. Our general policy will be victim-oriented. The victim must be protected and provided with psychological, material, legal support and assistance.
Q As you know, the judiciary in Argentina seems to follow the times of politics and the agendas of the press.
R. Rest assured that politics will have no influence from now on. We will not carry out political operations to harm anyone or persecute anyone. Milei was categorical when asked about a trial. He said, “That’s not my problem, that’s the judges’ problem.”
Q It was related to the concerns of Cristina Fernández de Kirchner. Which do you think there is sufficient evidence or evidence for?
R. For some yes, for others no.
Q Which ones yes and which ones not?
R. I don't dare comment because I haven't read them. I know them from the newspapers and from some judgments that I have read for scientific reasons. Let the judges study it. And the same applies to the causes [Mauricio] Macri and I don't know how many poor people have linked Alberto Fernández.
Q They have already spoken out against the impeachment of the Supreme Court, which encouraged outgoing Peronism
R. This verdict is outrageous. First, they are judged by their judgments: no one can be judged by their opinion in a judgment. And then they didn't find any foundations. It is an idea of pressure and discredit that is completely unfounded. This process should not take place because it is misguided, unfair and political.
Q There is a potential conflict with the court over the government's dollarization project. In an interview with EL PAÍS, President Horacio Rosatti said that dollarization was unconstitutional and Milei asked him to explain this in relation to the currency issue “because stealing is okay.”
R. I paid no attention to the Rosatti-Milei debate following the interview in EL PAÍS. Nor did they consult me in government about the constitutionality of dollarization.
Q With regard to the vacant position of the Court, can you explain the profile of the person you will propose as the fifth member?
R. It must be a person who knows the law and has the necessary poise, experience and street skills to carry out this task. To serve on the court for many years, it must be a person of female gender, a woman and a young man. Who knows the law, who is harmonious, fair, apolitical, non-partisan. There is a shortage of a criminal defense attorney because we have in the court a great constitutional lawyer, a great general strategist, a great statesman, a great civilian. There is no shortage of great penalty killers. I dream that she comes out of the judiciary and can't be my friend.
Q Milei made reducing government a priority. What does this cut consist of in the case of your ministry?
R. I've already started going crazy at the Ministry. Between new hires not continuing, contracts expiring at the end of the year, and political contracts, I get 33% of the building. Let me give you an example: in the press department there are 27 people for a job that four can do. I stopped buying all paper newspapers, I stopped buying all cell phones. There are lots of cars. We must make enormous efforts to spend as little money as possible so that the state can live on what it receives and not on what it does not have.
Q What are you doing with the motor vehicle register, which depends on your ministry and is considered a cross-sectional policy fund because some of the beneficiaries are relatives of political leaders?
R. The Automotive Registry is great: I'll be tackling this topic next week. In this first week I focused on getting to know everyone, introducing myself and putting teams together. Every morning I go to the Cabinet, every evening I had social problems at the Embassy of Israel and the Embassy of the United States, and today I am giving a lecture at the Association of Magistrates. I have to take on a presence role in certain areas to try to convey Milei's ideas. Economically we face very difficult times, but we will have honest people in front of us who will make enormous sacrifices to move the country forward. I have been spending summers in my house in Punta del Este for 35 years. [Uruguay]. I won't go and I don't know where I will spend the New Year. I won't go to Punta del Este because there are people there who suffer from poverty and I have to be a role model. I can't walk on the beach with a surfboard while people are suffering from poverty. My life has changed.
Q One of the criticisms of the ads is that the lower and middle sectors pay the highest costs.
R. Protection applies to children, young people and the poor who are most harmed. And if these young people live in poverty, they will produce many children who also live in poverty. That's why we have to focus on them.
Q As we speak, the Minister of Security is presenting a protocol for the social protests that will generalize the measures ordered by the government.
R. Social protest is a right, but blocking the road is a crime. The Minister has just presented a protocol which is very clear in this sense. Nobody has acted before. Now let's act.
Q In an interview, he said that he understands people who say that there are no rich prisoners in Argentina. What explanation do you find for this?
R. In the 1990s I thought that the powerful were not locked up. Then I realized that wasn't the case. Businessmen and important figures in Argentina suffered trials, and when there was evidence there were consequences. I said in those years that Carlos Menem [expresidente] He was the most powerful person in Argentina, Hugo Anzorreguy at the time [jefe de la inteligencia]third Carlos Corach [ministros del Interior] and four Reuben Beraiah [dirigente de la colectividad y banquero]. Everyone except Corach was arrested because I defended him. I took Menem with me and [a su cuñado Emir] Yoma too.
Q The phrase repeated in federal courts: “If Cúneo Libarona is your lawyer, you are safe.”
R. It's because I'm very good [se ríe].
Q What are his attributes?
R. Sacrifice and learned a lot.
Q Sacrifices are not enough.
R. I'm not a great genius, I'm a great sacrificer and a great case study. And it went well for me, I had a high level of effectiveness in the exams, but that was a product of work, dedication, team and a lot of ingenuity and experience. I was already an old man who knew: I grew up in court.
Q But isn't it a contradiction that someone who knows this world so well and is navigating the swamps says he will put aside his greatest expertise?
R. That's it. I no longer read a file. That's over now because I have a new life.
Q The average tenure in the ministry is short, as evidenced by the plaques of their predecessors in the central hall of this building: there have been twelve ministers in the last 24 years.
R. What you say worries me, I hadn't calculated it. There are two options for what type of pastor you can be, and I discussed this with Milei. If you want, you can be completely quiet: you take photos, you go to events, to embassies. But that's not what I came for. I came to work to present bills. If I have to leave here for some reason in the future, I don't think I will return to work. My brothers say I'm going back because I'm crazy. Before I became a minister, my dream was to teach constitutional law in the United States. But life didn't take me there and besides, I have a young girlfriend who studies and works and I prefer her because my children are already grown up.
Q You were the first to ensure justice and you were an effective communicator in the case of Guillermo Cóppola's arrest in 1996 [representante de Diego Maradona] after 40 grams of cocaine were found in a vase in his home.
R. I think I have created a style that is a parallel judgment. I realized that it made no sense for me to just win the case in court, but that I had to protect the client's honor in what I called the parallel process, namely the media trial. It didn't help me that the client was released and couldn't walk down the street honorably. In the Cóppola case, which was the most revolutionary, it would have been difficult to achieve the legal successes I achieved if I had not managed to change the client's image, such as his freedom. From that moment on, justice was delivered, but this was because it was already embedded in public opinion. If I were 30 years old and starting over, I would have a press representative in my studio, a psychologist to help clients who are in great pain and suffering from the process, and an accountant, because in white-collar crime that is essential. I did everything alone.
Q This case had a personal cost to you as details of your intimate life were known.
R. They invaded my personal life and I was terribly wrong. He was very young and had a lot of ego. Today I'm cured of the fear, have more experience and different ambitions, and I think I'm doing pretty well.
Q Do you think he was wrong about the Amia case? [la voladura de la mutual judía en la que murieron 85 personas] How much did stealing the video cost him to go to prison?
R. This was a political matter. History proved me right, they acquitted me and then they acquitted the defendant because the truth came out thanks to me. I was 34 years old and I was wrong. I was in prison for 32 days and learned a lot. Today I would have continued with fear, but in that moment I was brave.
Q Compared to the sense of power you had at age 22 to determine who was incarcerated, what is the sense of power like to have the office of attorney general?
R. It's getting me to an age where I'm much more balanced, I take more time to think, I have principles embedded in me, a big fundamental interpretation of what's best for the country, and I have a team of people who help me think. I'm not a politician, I don't understand if there are maneuvers, people who lie. I'm just like the president who is authentic.