The World Economic Forum will take place in Davos from January 15th to 20th. Today Marlene Engelhorn, heiress to the BASF company, a somewhat unusual heiress, is franceinfo's “eco” guest. She is demanding more taxes, has come to Davos to make this known, and will spend a fortune for the common good.
franceinfo : Marlene Engelhorn, you are Austrian, you are 31 years old and you are an heiress. Two years ago you received a very large sum of money. Can you tell us ?
Marlene Engelhorn: I received this money a year and a half ago and of course I was happy to have access to this money, to this inheritance.
How much did you get?
I can't say the exact amount because it not only affects me, but also my family. I try to be as transparent as possible. But like all “super rich” people, I’m not completely transparent and I’m embarrassed not to be.
They received less than 50 million euros, but approximately more than 20.
Yes, and I am currently redistributing 25 million euros on the initiative of a citizens' meeting.
In your country, Austria, there is no inheritance tax, is that correct?
Yes, we do not pay inheritance tax.
And how much tax have you paid since then?
When I buy something, I pay the taxes. Otherwise nothing. Since I don't work for a salary, I don't pay these taxes.
So you pay absolutely no taxes.
No, but I would be proud to pay these taxes.
They arranged to meet us in front of the Davos Congress Center in the cafeteria of the shopping center. Why come to Davos and stay away?
Well, I'm not invited. I would like to come over if I was invited. I'm here for the Tax Me Now collective. We are several rich people who have received large fortunes and who have come together to argue that we need to tax the rich too. Not only working people have to pay taxes, but also the rich, especially because they have the money for it. And so we are trying to say that in Davos, behind closed doors and in a not very accessible way, there are decisions in Switzerland that are being made in an undemocratic way. And if we also want to be truly honest about the idea of “rebuilding trust and the future,” which is the theme of Davos this week, we must open the doors and invite those affected by these decisions in a democratic way.
There is a badge system so that everyone understands it. And if you don't have the ID, you won't be able to enter Davos. The congress center is guarded by the police. Were you checked when you came to this interview?
Yes, the police checked us on the way here. We were looked into every bag to make sure we weren't causing a violent disturbance or anything like that.
And why are you coming to Davos? What is the word you want to convey? “Should I be taxed”?
““You have to tax me,” but not just me. It's not a private problem, it's a public problem. If large assets can truly hide from taxation, then we have a problem of global inequality and national inequality too. Today we have the Oxfam report which showed that the five richest people – all men – have doubled their wealth in the last three years, while 5 billion people on the planet have lost €20 billion.
You still show that you are not alone in this fight. There are several renowned billionaires, starting with Warren Buffett, who has advocated taxing and charging the richest for years. Why isn't it faster?
First of all, we really need political courage. I don't see that, at least not in Austria. I don't know much about the political scene in France, but I think the same problem exists everywhere.
The incumbent Emmanuel Macron has abolished the wealth tax.
Well, you see. The thing is, we have people who have large assets, who have disproportionate influence, and who can use that influence, through lobbying, to influence political decisions, especially behind closed doors. Not just in Davos, but in every country, every day, every week of the year. So we see that the influence of the rich is reflected in taxes that actually exclude wealth that excludes the rich, even though they could well pay taxes. The model that Oxfam presents is a model that is very easy to pay for. But if we give up the inheritance, if we have to pay taxes, then we give up the power. The rich, who are very conservative, do not want to give up their power.
Given inflation, the climate crisis and the massive public investment needed, we are still seeing the idea of a “climate” wealth tax return to the public debate. There are economists, most notably the Frenchman Gabriel Zucman, who are calling for the introduction of a global tax on cultural heritage, a tax of 2% of cultural heritage. According to him, it would bring in 200 billion euros per year worldwide. What do you think ?
This shows very well that experts and specialists agree on the issue of wealth taxation. And beyond that, we also see that the inheritance is there, the wealth is there, the money is there. We could really get into the fight against crises and we don't. And why ? Because there are some who prefer to keep their comfort and power rather than share their resources with the world. Knowing that without global cooperation, without globalization, without the work of all the people who already pay their taxes, there is no way to create great assets.
I get the impression that you have given up, that you have lost hope of one day being taxed at a fair level.
Oh no, I didn't give up! No, no, I haven't lost hope, on the contrary. But we cannot wait for governments. You don't have to wait to make decisions yourself. And if I want to be taxed and redistribute my wealth in a democratic way, then apparently it's up to me to do so.
Ah, you decided that. Are you the one who will do it?
Exactly, and I want to redistribute in a democratic way, that is, I hand over the inheritance and decision-making power entirely to this citizens' assembly that is being created. I pay for everything. Everyone is paid for their work, for the organization.
You will organize the way your wealth, your inheritance will be redistributed, is that correct?
Yes, together with the Forsythe Institute we have decided to create a “citizens’ assembly”. There is a nationwide register with all addresses of all Austrian residents over 16 years old. We sent out 10,000 invitations to participate in this town hall meeting. People can respond, they then receive a questionnaire that they share only with the Forsythe Institute. I don't see any of this data. 50 people will then be selected to represent the Austrian population. And these 50 people will have the duty to discuss the question of the distribution of inheritance and wealth among the population, about things that could change, about ideas that could be developed. I am making the 25 million euros available as a budget so that this group of people can make really concrete decisions and carry out projects. I don't know how they will decide. We expect the decision at the beginning of June and will see.
It's a radical decision.
Actually, it's just democratic.