La Croix: On May 29th, during a consistory, you learned of your appointment as cardinal on August 27th. What does this date change for you?
Bishop Jean-Marc Aveline: I’m just beginning to measure what’s changing in my mission… I admit it’s staggering, but the joy and prayer of the people of Marseille give me confidence and I want to keep this anchor in my first job apostolate. I also believe that this cardinalate is likely to strengthen the bonds of fraternity that I have with the bishops of France. But of course I feel a certain weight on my shoulders!
Which cardinal do you want to be? Do you want to use this to advance this “Mediterranean theology” that is so close to your heart?
Bishop J.-MA: I don’t feel like representing a cause that I should advance by taking advantage of an advantageous situation. Because what distinguishes a cardinal is the bond with the Holy See and even more with the person of the Pope and the service of his office. I don’t know yet for which field of activity he will ask me to help him more. I have a feeling he cares deeply about the Mediterranean issue; maybe this will give us the opportunity to visit Marseille… During a conversation with him, I also understood that he liked Marseille because it is on a dividing line that is also a meeting point: both a gateway to the East and a gateway to the West .
You will be the only cardinal to occupy a French bishopric, giving you a special place in it the church of france?
Bishop J.-MA: At the moment it’s just a hunch though, I think so. A cardinal, also the only one who – while waiting for others – is not the representative of the bishops of France. But I feel this gives me a special mission, especially so that the people of Rome better understand what is going on in the Church of France, what is being sought amid the difficulties and crises we are going through.
Apart from Marseille, how do you see the fractures in French society?
Bishop J.-MA: I’m worried, even worried. I find it difficult for us to debate without abuse. The abstention in the last elections testifies to a lack of trust in the politically committed. When I meet some elected officials here in Marseille and in the region, I always encourage them: it is good for people to take care of the city and to care for their fellow citizens.
But France needs hope today! It has too many doubts about itself, about its vocation as a nation, about what throughout its long history has endowed it with wealth that can be useful to others. As a result, the tone of France is almost missing in the current concert of nations because it is not sure enough of itself.
They describe a France weakened by fractures. How to meet those that concern the Church of France?
Bishop J.-MA: First, to return to Jesus Christ and to accept the communion that his Spirit wants to weave between us at the service of the love with which the Father loves the world. Next, prioritize mission, because this is the Church’s raison d’être: it is to proclaim the Gospel, serving the dignity of every human being, working at the service of the common good, promoting human unity Helping family and conscience to stay awake, all because of the Gospel and in a ceaseless dialogue with all men and women of goodwill. Finally, the regular adjustment of the internal organization of the church to the constantly changing demands of the mission.
Do you think that the Church of France is badly off in the face of the sexual abuse crisis, secularization or even the vocation crisis?
Bishop J.-MA: I don’t think she’s bad. It is certainly going through a series of severe crises. And it’s not the first time in history that she’s seen them just before the others. I remember that when my predecessors went to Rome, they were often lectured about the lack of dynamism in their dioceses. Now that the wave of secularization has reached more eastern countries, we are being asked for advice on how to persevere in such a context… And then certain crises are salutary. The report of the Independent Commission on Sexual Abuse in the Church (Ciase) and the work of the Episcopate with all the faithful make us more vigilant and attentive to the victims and commit us to a full examination of conscience.
Pope Francis has already pointed out the paradox of the Church of France. On the one hand, because of the political option of secularism, it has to face the steamroller of a secularization that is perhaps more active than elsewhere. This has advantages because it prioritizes citizenship over denomination, but it also carries the danger of slipping into a secularism that is like a new religion. On the other hand, the Pope emphasizes that the Church of France is amazed by the abundance of holiness that she inspires. So there is no lack of resources, as I often see, especially among young people.
Mrg Aveline in the Diocese of Marseille, July 25, 2022. / V. Vermeil for “La Croix”
Visits have recently been made to dioceses, in Toulon and Strasbourg, in new communities… Is this a sign that the Church of France is facing government problems, or that Rome does not like France?
Bishop J.-MA: First, it must be recognized that governance, whether ecclesiastical, political or economic, is becoming increasingly difficult. I’ve heard from enough officials in these areas to know that today anyone who exercises authority is easily targeted. In the church, perhaps, the problems are compounded by the sacramental dimension involved in the care of those who hold episcopal or presbyteral offices. Some habits are also to be checked – which Pope Francis denounces under the name clericalism, which, moreover, does not only affect clerics. But let it be said, “Rome does not love France”, no! On the contrary, Rome loves France enough, if need be, to exercise a vigilance that is not suspicion.
How did you take the feedback from practice in the context of the synod on the future of the church? Should we be moving towards a fully Synodal Church?
Bishop J.-MA: On this subject of the synod, I believe that the thing is worth more than the word. And I think that the adjective synodal should eventually go away, since it would have become synonymous with ecclesiastical. Basically it is a “church” church that we want: a church that moves away from an exclusively hierarchical operation.
We are in a process with this synod that seems to me almost as important as a council, except that Pope Francis wanted the word to be given first to the whole people of God. Then it will be necessary to build something with all this. You can see a few lines. And also limits: believers of a certain age group took part in the synod assemblies, but far fewer young people. However, a photo of the grandparents does not give an adequate picture of the family and its dynamics…
Would you say that the church needs to be reformed to proclaim the faith in another world?
Bishop J.-MA: The Church is semper reformanda (“always to be reformed”): the day she would say she no longer needed to reform, she would no longer be faithful to her mystery! But for this he must muster both an unshakable loyalty to tradition and a fearless openness to the questions of today’s world. Tradition is a question of responsibility. Each generation must expose the deposit of faith to the questions of its time. The generation fifty years ago had no problem with the climate emergency or with biomedical ethics: we did! And in these questions, too, we must declare our hope.
In addition, I think that the Synod has not yet borne all fruit because it was very interested in how it works. Now the raison d’être of the church is not to look after itself, but to serve God’s love relationship with the world (John 3:16).
Can the word of the bishops still be heard? On what is it expected and can it be heard?
Bishop J.-MA: In my little experience, one should not speak too often, but dare to do it on time and out of time. When bishops act as relays for the voiceless, their words, even if disturbing, are heard. Of course, one must always strive to be true to what one says. We don’t teach; we deliver a testimony, even if it has to cost us. So yes, I think it’s important that the church can take a stand. That means you won’t be heard because you speak, even if we pretend to hear you!
They lead the national pilgrimage for the first time. Do you have a special relationship with Lourdes?
Bishop J.-MA: I first went there as a kid, as a family. Bernadette’s simplicity, her freedom, her dignity have always touched me deeply. I was returning from a diocesan pilgrimage on May 29 when I learned of my nomination as cardinal. Yesterday, in front of the grotto, I asked the Lord for the grace not to let all the worries of church life cloud my joy – and I pray for that all the more today!
This national pilgrimage is also an opportunity to pray for France and for peace: when I see the Marian devotion of the Ukrainians in Zarvanycia, like that of the Russians in front of the icon of Our Lady of Kazan, I say to myself that we cannot endure the war without it we can fervently entrust to the Virgin Mary the desire for peace that dwells within us.
The theme of the 2022 pilgrimage is “Let us be witnesses of hope with Mary”. How can we keep hope alive in these troubled times?
Bishop J.-MA: To keep hope alive, I believe in the importance of an inner work of decentering, which consists in learning to rejoice in what the grace of God is doing in other people. Through this call to conversion and reconciliation, the Holy Spirit weaves communion between us and directs it toward mission. I am often in awe of people of all ages, believers or not, who genuinely experience life, its joys and its sorrows, and who, against all odds, keep in their hearts a desire to live and do good to others. This helps me to witness to the love with which God in Jesus Christ loves the world to heal and save, and this love is my hope.