by Aldo Cazullo
Interview with the sociologist Alain Touraine: «The subject is Islam. Marine didn’t show up. A pro-European doing an encore is a page of political history.
from our correspondent
PARIS – From the twelfth floor of his home in Montparnasse, and even more so from the peak of his 97th year in August, one can wander all over Paris – the churches, the history – and feel the world can still be studied, thought, maybe Roger that.
Professor Alain Touraine, was Macron’s victory clear? Or as a result?
«Clear victory. Almost twenty points: What are we talking about? A pro-European who wins twice in France at the time of Brexit, Trump and the revolt against globalization is a page of political history ».
But the far right is at an all-time high.
“Sure. There is strong anti-European sentiment in France. How xenophobia exists. Marine Le Pen has launched a left-wing social campaign on jobs and wages. But the French are not idiots: they know the basis of his thinking remains xenophobic. It is too anti-Semitic. In fact, by the extreme right ».
Traditional parties are overwhelmed.
“Apparently it’s impressive: the socialist candidate Anne Hidalgo, mayor of Paris, doesn’t get 1.8%… In reality it’s completely normal”.
Because?
“Because when the nature of society changes, the political actors change. In 1848, workers burst into history: the Paris riots overthrew the last king, Louis Philippe. The class struggle with the bosses began, the history of socialism and the bourgeois right. Now this world is over.”
But the gulf remains between those above and those below, those who live in the city and those in the provinces, those who vote for Macron and those who vote for Le Pen.
“You see, France was a state before it was a society; and that’s a problem we haven’t solved yet. France arose from the alliance between the king and the bourgeoisie against the aristocrats: the Sun King and the great bourgeois Colbert against the Fronde. But even today the high administration – the Council of State, the Court of Auditors, the great schools of the capital, in short, the world from which Macron comes – is considered by the French to be the king’s court; so enemy of the people”.
Emmanuel Carrère told the Corriere that, unlike the socialists, the republican right still exists; because the Republican right is Macron.
“The real question should be: Who is Macron?”
Exactly: who is that? She wrote a book about him. tell us
“Macron does not come from the right. His teacher was Paul Ricoeur, the most important philosopher of his generation, who grew up in contact with the greats who were a few years his senior: Jean-Paul Sartre, Maurice Merleau-Ponty, Simone de Beauvoir. The men who invented Macron are also leftists.”
Invented in what sense?
“Macron did humanistic, literary studies. Then he was told that you need money to do politics; for this he joined the Rothschild Bank. First he destroyed the Socialist Party, in a coup d’état less against President Hollande than against the domestic left. Then, from the Elysée, he destroyed the neo-Gaullist party. Macron is a great tactician. But what his political project is besides destruction is not clear ».
Europe, right?
“Of course: the United States of Europe, or at least a hard core that includes Germany, Italy, Spain. And Holland, a great financial power. The moment is right because Germany is not too strong: Merkel has resigned, her balance sheet is being discussed; and when the word comes to arms, as in Ukraine, Germany is still weak ».
Did the war affect the elections?
“He would have: Marine Le Pen is a friend of Putin’s, she took money from Russia. Putin bought it ».
Then why did the French give him over 13 million votes?
“Because they claim to be able to elect their own President. Finally, think of how many European politicians the Americans bought… The election was not decided by the war, but by the pandemic ».
Because?
«In 2021 I wrote a chapter of a book that was very critical of Macron and stopped: I really thought that the danger of a victory for the extreme right was real. But then the President took the right step. He rejected a second lockdown. He didn’t listen to the medical-scientific community calling for new restrictions. He freed the French. At that time he won the election. The rest was done by Marine Le Pen, who was not up to date, not educated enough ».
Is culture that important?
“We were never a great industrial power. Our empire was ridiculous compared to England’s. Our army hasn’t been this strong for a long time. Cultural power, language, literature are the only reason why France remains an important country in the world ».
But the Sorbonne students wrote “neither with Macron nor with Le Pen”.
“The Sorbonne has always been a bad university. It was well in the thirteenth century, maybe the fourteenth. The last student to study at the Sorbonne was Dante. But it is precisely at the universities that Macron can leave his mark on the history of France ».
Because?
“Every century has its necessary institution. The nineteenth century had great commercial banks: in Italy they were born in Milan, which is why it is still the economic center. The twentieth century had great industry. This is the century of “research universities”. Macron should give France great research universities. To carry out the project of my partner at the École Normale, Michel Foucault ».
Did he go to university with Foucault?
“He came a year after me. He said that university must be the place where a young person becomes a human subject; that is, a god ».
The school world does not love Macron.
“He hates it. Humanities students in particular. And the professors of science subjects: underpaid compared to fellow students employed by private companies. Everyone voted for Mélenchon. As young Piketty says… ».
Piketty is 52 years old.
«Exactly: very young. Piketty points out that the driving force of the left was once the militants, the workers; today it is the people of the university ».
Is France facing a new social revolt?
“The danger is there, and Macron would do well to negotiate his pension reform rather than impose it. But the reason why revolts have exploded and wars have been fought for twenty years is neither for pensions nor for the economy.
Then what is it?
“Religion. And religion in a secular country like France means Islam. I remember that with my older sister Jeanne…».
How old is your sister?
“One hundred. We visited the world leaders who supported France after the Bataclan. We saw terrible massacres, from Charlie Hebdo to July 14 in Nice. Yet the country persevered ».
In the debate with Marine Le Pen, Macron spoke of the danger of a civil war.
«The war with Islam has been going on since the time of the Crusades. For the believers of a religion such as Christianity – for which man was created in the image and likeness of God and God became man – and Islam for which God is everything and man is nothing, cannot be understood”.
Thank you Professor, I and the readers of the Corriere would listen to you again; but the afternoon is gone, and so is the page.
“Thank you for listening to me speak about French society. Which, I hope you understand, does not exist ».
April 25, 2022 (Change April 25, 2022 | 23:58)
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