It is almost midnight when Josep Borrell (La Pobla de Segur, 76 years old) arrives at his hotel in Jerusalem after a busy day on his first visit to Israel since taking office as EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs in 2019. Still Due to his tiredness, he begins to speak before the journalist asks or activates the recorder. His passion and interest for a region to which he also has a personal connection are obvious: in 1969 he worked as a volunteer in a kibbutz for a summer and met his first wife there. He recalled this hours earlier when he visited another kibbutz, Beeri, where Hamas militants killed and kidnapped dozens of people – more than 13,000 dead and whole – in a surprise attack on October 7 that led to Israel’s invasion of Gaza neighborhoods in ruins – and changed the visit that Borrell had planned after the Israeli authorities stopped unofficially vetoing him because they considered him biased against the Palestinians.
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Borrell admits that at such a sensitive moment it is “uncomfortable” to simply convey to his Israeli interlocutors that the Hamas attack was “terrible” and “unjustified,” but also that “one horror does not justify another horror.” “The war has its rules” and the humanitarian situation in Gaza today is “absolutely enormous”. In short: “The problem cannot be solved with the mass exodus of more than two million” Gazans, but with a political solution that guarantees the Jewish state the security that its numerous soldiers and its expensive technological barrier around Gaza cannot provide can. They could have given it that October 7th. This Monday he will communicate to the foreign ministers of the 27 countries the conclusions of this regional trip, which also took him to Palestine, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Jordan.
Questions. A long day with many meetings…
Answer. We have to talk to everyone now. The humanitarian situation in Gaza is absolutely enormous. Enormously. The Israelis themselves have told us how it is, but of course they have a less dramatic vision and that Hamas is to blame. The United Nations has a reliable and impartial vision. There are one and a half million displaced people. Israel wants to offer a safe area, but it is very small and people are afraid to come in and then not come out again.
UN organizations cannot replace the normal functioning of an economy with more than two million people. With the resources they have, they cannot suddenly feed them every day and guarantee them services. The Israelis blame the Palestinians for the destruction of the land crossings. In reality, they probably don’t have much interest in opening them either.
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The trucks drive by drop by drop. The humanitarian situation can be really, really, really serious. What does Israel want? Today in Israel they told us clearly that they do not want to stay in Gaza. But also that they want to secure Gaza. The question remains: How is Gaza secured then? I think my message has become clear: “Listen to what he did to you [Hamás] It is a massive, terrible, unjustified attack on civilians. But war has its rules. And the bombings must take into account the casualties they cause.”
There are satellite photos where you can see whole blocks, whole blocks, collapsed. The Israelis explain that there are Hamas tunnels underneath, that they have to do it because they are hidden underneath. It’s them, it’s not them, I personally don’t know. They suspect they are.
Everything depends on the release of the hostages. If they are released, the big question is: What do we do with the Gazans? There may be more than 10,000 deaths, but it is still more than two million people.
Q Even if the hostages are released, Israel will remain committed to its goal of ending Hamas.
R. What is ending Hamas? And then there is the growing violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, which is rarely talked about. We had a meeting with the president [Isaac] Duke. Went well. Since I happen to be a bit pro-Palestinian, I was worried there would be a colder reception, but no. He was happy that we went and expressed our feelings, but they do not believe that there is such a serious problem of violence in the occupied territories. That’s what they call them: occupied territories.
It doesn’t reach the scale of the bombings in Gaza, but there is a very strong escalation of violence in the West Bank. In fact, the army did not guard the Gaza border [el 7 de octubre] because he was expelled to the West Bank. We are concerned about a new explosion of violence in the West Bank, where Palestinians have few options to defend themselves. There have been 400 deaths since the beginning of the year and 200 since October 7th. And finally there is the internationalization of the conflict, i.e. Hezbollah in Lebanon. Each time there is an increasingly violent artillery and rocket duel.
Imagine there is a ceasefire and trucks are allowed to pass. How long will the United Nations have resources to ensure a continuous flow of aid? If it suddenly says: “Five days of total opening”, we have to think about where the resources come from to help so many people. And we [la UE] We have increased aid significantly, up to 100 million.
Q What impression did you get from the meetings with the Israeli leaders regarding the idea you previously had?
R. I already knew they were capable of putting an end to Hamas. The retention speech, well, they take it into account. We met with their humanitarian cell, which is very well set up. They are making it a point to document everything they do since the International Criminal Court has opened an investigation [por el 7 de octubre].
But I don’t think they will stop until the hostages are released. And we, at least my speech, you have already heard that one horror does not justify another horror. If they want to create peace, they cannot sow more hatred now. And then? Nobody wants to talk about the day after. Actually, now is the day after. The Arabs tell you, “People are dying and you tell me we have to have a conference in six months.” And the Israelis don’t want to talk about the day after either because they don’t know when and how it will end. They don’t want to stay, but they want to secure Gaza. OK very good. How you do that? Not even Hamas has called for a ceasefire. They died of success. They did not expect to cause so much death and destruction. They met without resistance. I don’t think they expected to be able to penetrate so deeply. And especially for so long.
Josep Borrell, in a hotel in Jerusalem after the interview, this Thursday.Álvaro García
There is a lot of accumulated hatred… And the feeling that the families of the victims and hostages have [israelíes]: “They are doing it to us because we are Jews.” All the red lights of the Holocaust are awakened. After what happened, the two-state solution… As President Herzog says, “Who guarantees my security?” If they did that in Gaza, then that [futuro] Condition [palestino]“How will it work?”
Q This goes back to what you said: that there is no technology or barrier [garantiza la seguridad de Israel]…
R. Will be demonstrated. Either it is a political solution or it will continue for generations. The confrontation between two peoples over the same land has been going on for more than a century. It is not pleasant to come here to tell you what I told you. They want unconditional support. The “yes, but” doesn’t satisfy her.
And then the deaths of children [en Gaza]. They showed us the horrific photos of the kibbutz massacres [en referencia a las que le mostró este jueves el ministro israelí de Exteriores, Eli Cohen]But the hospitals in Gaza also have to make your hair stand on end.
Q I would like to go back to what you said before, that the basis is the release of the hostages. There would be a pause of sorts, but then the bombing would continue.
R. That’s why the hostages are not released. They are a currency. Perhaps they publish the most unpleasant and difficult to care for. Some are sick, imagine their emotional state, their hygiene conditions, their nutritional status, their health status…
Q Why do you feel the need to remember that all lives have equal value?
R. Because the Arabs say that lives do not have the same value for us. At the peace conference in Cairo in October, they said it at the highest political level: “It is clear to you Europeans that the life of a Palestinian does not have the same value as the life of an Israeli.” “Don’t talk to me about human rights anymore.” They throw it in your face.
Different European heads of state and government express themselves differently. And I have to represent everyone. There are countries like Spain that are calling for a ceasefire. [El presidente del Gobierno] Pedro Sánchez fought hard for this. [El presidente francés, Emmanuel] Macron recently said: “Israel must stop killing women and children.” But there are other European leaders who have not voiced similar condemnations.
Q And how do you manage to deal with these differences?
R. Often I don’t understand it [risas]. At the United Nations [el 27 de octubre] four voted against; eight, for; and the others abstained. The meeting point is abstention. But if there are four countries that say, “No, I’m not abstaining, I’m voting against,” then another eight say, “Well, I’m for it.” It’s a very contentious issue in Europe. There are countries that are in a situation that is strongly influenced by their history. And they say to you: As for Israel, it is as if we were ourselves. And then there are others, like Spain, that don’t have the same history and the same sense of guilt. Rather the complete opposite. A clearer sympathy for the Arab world.
Europe is unanimous on this, because in the end everyone in the European Council approved a common position. But as soon as we face a vote in the United Nations, the differences become clear. And I can’t tell them to choose what I want. Foreign policy remains the responsibility of each individual member state.
Q What do you expect from the regional tour?
R. A conceptual framework needs to be created. It is clear that there is a political solution to this or that there is no solution.
My conceptual framework is the three yeses and the three nos. No to Hamas keeping the Gaza Strip again, no to Israel keeping it, no to the forced expulsion of people outside [de Gaza].
The three yes votes are: Yes to the Palestinian Authority, but it cannot go alone. Yes to a commitment from the Arab states, but not just to financing reconstruction. And yes, Europe is taking action on this matter and is not remaining isolated, but is leaving the solution to the US and the Arab world. We are great at being a good Samaritan, but this is not just about healing the wound, but about building a nation.
Q Is the EU able to play this role?
R. Have. We spend our lives building institutions, from the Caucasus to the Balkans. But that means a strong commitment. Neither the Europeans alone, nor the Arabs, nor the United States can do this. It must be the will of the international community. The problem cannot be solved with the mass exodus of more than two million.
Q Israel is against the Palestinian Authority taking over the government in Gaza the next day.
R. Someone has to come. We also don’t know when the time will come and how it will turn out. What I do know is that there is a moral and political responsibility of the international community that we have been saying “two states, two states, two states” for 20 years and doing nothing to put it into practice. Or very little. Israel doesn’t want it. He hasn’t loved her since they killed [1995] To [el primer ministro, Isaac] Rabin. It was in the hands of governments that didn’t want it. Extremists on both sides have made it impossible.
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