The Dutch political scientist Cas Mudde (56) has analyzed the rise of the extreme right for decades. And it’s not optimistic. Movements that threaten liberal democracies are on the rise, and their populist discourse is permeating the general debate without us realizing it. “The radical right has not moderated; It’s the mainstream that has become radicalized,” he warns. Mudde has lived in the United States since 2008 and is a professor at the University of Georgia. He uses his trips to Europe to give lectures, meet with his colleagues in different countries and play football. He has seen a game in Berlin, where he is visiting us before flying to Barcelona to take part in Orwell Day, which is taking place this Tuesday at the Center for Contemporary Culture (CCCB). As the author of The Far Right Today and the widely cited Populism: A Brief Introduction, Mudde turns to Spanish politics to explain concepts. Vox is dangerous, he says, because it moves well within the system and will likely have the PP as an ally.
Questions. They explain that in three decades western societies have gone from excluding radical discourses to normalizing them. How did it happen?
Answer. In the late 1990s, there was a major taboo against xenophobia and nationalism. But 9/11 came and the reaction was Islamophobia and prejudice. In this dynamic, only one party had a negative discourse on immigration, and that was the extreme right. Others began to speak of immigration as a problem, a threat to identity and national security. And once you take over the frame, you take over the positions. Then the difference between you and the far right narrows and there are fewer reasons to exclude them.
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QHow do you define this ideology?
RThe core is not socio-economic but socio-cultural and based on nativism, a xenophobic form of nationalism. They want their state to be inhabited mainly by their own nation, which they define strictly, and they see the foreign as a threat. Combined with authoritarianism, its own vision of law and order, and in many cases populism. And what we call welfare state chauvinism. They support him, but for his people.
QHe says that tolerance and inclusion are making progress in most countries, especially among young people. How do you explain the reactionary wave?
RWho vote? Especially the older ones. Older people are not necessarily more xenophobic, but for them immigration has become a problem and an identity issue.
QAnd what role do the conservative parties play in this context?
RWe are witnessing a radicalization of the mainstream and the mainstream right in particular. The PP, for example, is now much more right-wing than it was 30 years ago, especially when it comes to socio-cultural issues. In France, the Republicans are like a national assembly. There are some exceptions, such as the CDU in Germany. The center moves to the right to win elections. In time they will become indistinguishable from the extreme right. And as Jean-Marie Le Pen said, people will prefer the original to the copy.
QIs Vox dangerous?
RA lot. Vox is a far-right party, just like the Front National or the AfD. The fact that they are leaving the mainstream [del PP]That they are professional politicians, that they are softer than others, means nothing. Ideologically, these are nativism, authoritarianism and populism. The danger is that they are essentially an anti-liberal democracy and, like all radical right-wing parties, have problems with minority rights, the separation of powers and the rule of law. And they are particularly dangerous because they are competent. Vox will want to work within the system and will likely have an ally in the PP.
QIn what sense?
RVox is like Meloni in Italy and partly like Orbán in Hungary: they want to change the system from within. And they know how.
“Progressives love the fear of the far right. They swallow every story, even if it’s made up. It is always read the most. I call it ‘far right porn’.”
QDoes it make sense to turn an election into an “either me or the extreme right” referendum (as Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez did)?
RThe problem with focusing the elections on the far right is that the opposing party wins, but so does the far right. Because it was the focus of the debate. The PP will of course try to counter this by saying: If you want to avoid Vox, give us the majority.
QAnd will he take part in this game?
RIn all honesty, I think the PP poses a greater threat to liberal democracy than Vox in the short term. Vox won’t hit 30% overnight. If he gains influence, it will be indirectly, as the PP moves to the right, or directly through a coalition. So Pedro Sánchez has to do this referendum. The problem is that the debate will be limited to that. And the Spaniards don’t talk about housing, education or health.
QWhat is the responsibility of the media?
RThe media is often seen as part of the democratic arena, and it is not. You are a business and you need to sell. Many journalists are concerned about the far right but work for companies that feed off this content. And the far right sells, scandals sell.
QIt happened to Trump, right?
RNothing shows it better. The number of viewers for CNN, subscriptions to the New York Times or the Washington Post skyrocketed. Progressives like to fear the far right. They buy every story, even the made-up one, about a populist international. It is the most read book. I call it “far right porn”.
QEurope fears another Trump.
RNormally unpredictable, as President and leader of the largest army, he would be the most powerful person in the world. And Ron DeSantis is ideologically identical. It is as nativist and authoritarian as he is, and both are fundamentally undemocratic.
QWe have undemocratic leaders in Europe. How is the European Union dealing with them?
RHe has long since mastered Hungary’s lesson. If you’re authoritarian at home but loyal in Brussels, the EU allows you to. Now comes a new lesson from Poland. If you’re authoritarian at home but fair in terms of NATO or foreign policy interests, that’s fine. At the moment, Orbán is being marginalized, not because of liberal democracy, but because of his pro-Putin position. The overriding lesson is that if they are staunchly anti-Putin, they will leave me alone.
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