Gideon Saar (Tel Aviv, 56 years old) speaks slowly and calmly, but interrupts his sentences with small taps on the table with his knuckles. There is nothing surprising about what he defines as the “most critical moment” in the 75-year history of Israel, the country in which he succinctly served as Minister of Education, Interior (with Benjamin Netanyahu) and Justice. A diverse government coalition was formed many of its former allies and is only united by its rejection of the current prime minister. “There were years when we worked together and others when I was perhaps his biggest rival,” he jokes in an interview at the headquarters of the New Hope party he leads, on the outskirts of the city of Modiín, between Jerusalem and Jerusalem Tel Aviv.
He has spent almost his entire political career in the Likud. He gave it up in 2019 after his attempt to wrest the leadership from Netanyahu in a primary clearly failed. He founded Nueva Esperanza, with which he took part in the elections last November thanks to the creation of Benny Gantz, National Unity. On the 11th, both gave up their opposition and criticism of the judicial reform and joined the emergency government created specifically for the war. He did not take over the portfolio because there is no need: he is one of the 20 chosen with a permanent seat in the political and security cabinet, a small forum to speed up decision-making in times of crisis.
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He assures that the “destruction of Hamas” is also an exemplary message for the rest of the neighbors and that if it happens, Israel will set up security strips in Gaza, which may be mined and which are forbidden to approach. He holds Hamas “solely responsible” for the deaths of Palestinian civilians in Israeli bombings and sees the Palestinian Authority (PNA) as unable to assume responsibility for the Gaza Strip, as the United States wants. But above all, Saar wants Israel to control its present and future with a clear idea: its enemies are trying to exterminate the Jews just as the Nazis did in the Holocaust. “The only difference,” he says, “is the skills.”
Questions. You have said that Israel needs to change its security approach after the brutality of the October 7 attack. What does it refer to?
Answer. Almost 1,400 Israelis were murdered and 250 kidnapped in one day. How many inhabitants are there in Spain? 40 million?
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Q 48 million.
R. Every Spaniard must imagine that 7,000 Spaniards were murdered and 1,250 kidnapped in a terrorist attack. How would Spain react? I am convinced that it would be eliminated to endanger and destroy the military capabilities of those who did such a thing so that they cannot do it again. And that is our goal. The broad context is very important. Israel withdrew from Gaza 18 years ago. In fact, it has uprooted its entire civilian population. To the graves. And all its military presence without exception. From that moment on, Gaza could have taken other directions, but it became one of the world’s largest bases for terrorism and aggression against Israel and its citizens. We have had six small wars or military skirmishes with Hamas. And we did not do in them what we should have done. And now it is necessary to do it. Destroy Hamas’ military and governmental capabilities. It is important in itself and also important from a regional perspective so that our neighbors understand that we cannot do without something like this. I wouldn’t even say it needs an answer because it would be a joke to talk about an answer. It requires eliminating the source of evil from the ground up.
Q And then?
R. We have no territorial claim to Gaza and are not prepared to renew Jewish settlements. We have the will to live in peace, and it is impossible to live in peace with Hamas, because its founding document states the destruction of the State of Israel. Not only. The destruction of the Jews. We saw it with our own eyes. We are talking about a Nazi-Hitler movement. And with such a movement there can be no peace. We have no intention of coming and saying who will govern our neighbors. But we will not let him do it to the one who is working to destroy us. What will happen the day after? We are having discussions about it. I really hope that Egypt will be a partner. It borders the Gaza Strip, it has controlled it in the past, it knows the place well… And I think there will be a few years of a kind of transition period with a status by the international community with Gaza, our status, restored regional powers like Egypt and protecting our security, that is…
Q Military presence.
R. We don’t have to stay in the middle of the population there. We don’t have that intention. But just as we enter and exit Jenin or Tulkarem today to meet the organization before it hurts us, do the same. We cannot let terrorism thrive alone. And protective strips from the border. What happened before is that the terrorists who moved freely along the border and even reached the barrier itself and shot at the soldiers will not happen again.
There will be security patrols. A kilometer or whatever is defined. It is forbidden to go near it. Maybe we’ll lay mines there, I won’t decide now. But our kibbutzes and our border towns need security the day after their return at the end of the operation. We will give them the confidence to go back there. And they will.
Q It’s a change in concept, but it’s still a strong concept. More power than before. How does it help the security of the State of Israel that there are 10,000 dead in Gaza, apparently mostly civilians? Doesn’t it create more hate?
R. Hate comes from indoctrination. Also in the Palestinian Authority. Killing Jews, they are not human, hating them… is what they are taught from birth. It doesn’t come from the use of force.
We are not fighting against the Gazans, but against Hamas. And we act according to international law. Unlike Hamas, we never target civilians. In fact, we told them, “Go from here and there, we will operate in these areas.” It may have compromised our ability to surprise, but we wanted to protect the civilian population. Even though hundreds of thousands have left, who is preventing their arrival? [al sur] It’s Hamas. So who is responsible for these deaths? Hamas, not Israel.
There are no wars, especially not in densely populated areas where no harm is caused to the civilian population. The basic question is whether the laws of war are adhered to, whether the civilian population is targeted, and the principle of proportionality is observed. Under very difficult conditions, we act in accordance with international law.
Q The numbers do not suggest a localized intervention.
R. I come back to the same thing. International law speaks of proportionality. Anyone who hides behind the civilian population, forces them to stay and is guilty of murdering civilians is Hamas alone. So if there are a lot of Palestinian deaths, he has to go to Hamas. Why did you attack on October 7th? Why don’t you let the population evacuate? Why are you using the population as human shields? But we cannot sacrifice ourselves and not act. We must protect our people. The era in which Jews were murdered without being able to defend themselves ended in 1948 [año de la creación del Estado de Israel]. Today Jews are defending themselves. Our mistake was not doing it until now. We should have done it much earlier. We had the opportunity in 2014, 2019. We’ve waited too long. We won’t wait any longer.
Q Doesn’t it contribute to the cycle of violence?
R. I don’t want to say I don’t understand it, but there is a lack of understanding in the question. The cycle of violence arises from: education for peace or education for murder. If you are raised from scratch to kill Jews, you can go to a kibbutz and put a baby in the oven. There was no Israeli attack to respond to.
Q If I understand correctly, you are saying that this is unfounded hatred that has nothing to do with the blockade [de Gaza] not even with the cast [militar].
R. No, that has nothing to do with it. We don’t want a blockade of the Gaza Strip. The mistakes we made were the opposite. We brought in people who collected intelligence information and passed it on to Hamas. Cement came in and they used it for the tunnels. If we made mistakes, it was because of our humane treatment of them. Conversely, we never made any mistakes.
Q He mentioned Egypt for the day after Gaza, but not the ANP. Because?
R. I look at the practical first. The people I consult with and whose judgment I trust in the security and intelligence system tell me that the ANP has no chance of taking responsibility and controlling Gaza. It doesn’t even control Jenin, so it’s not realistic that it can control Gaza. We also have issues with her that I would focus on: incitement [a la violencia] and payments to terrorists and their families. They must end, and there will be no political process without them ending.
Gideon Saar, during the interview, this Monday in the Israeli city of Modiín. Alejandro Ernesto
Q As for the hostages, isn’t such action in Gaza contradicting the talks on their release?
R. No, because we understand that [el líder político de Hamás en Gaza, Yahia] Sinwar has no interest in releasing the hostages. We gave it time before the ground operation but it didn’t yield any results. Our conclusion was that Sinwar sees the hostages as an asset and doesn’t want to achieve anything. Use them to disrupt our military operation. Therefore, I think that the use of military force has the potential to weaken Hamas’s stance on the release of the hostages.
Q As?
R. Desiring to reach a ceasefire. Because without the release of hostages there will be none. It just won’t happen. Therefore, the use of military force may result in them releasing the babies, elderly people and women they are holding. And it can open up additional mission opportunities, like last week when we freed a female soldier.
Q Is it realistic to think beyond the exceptional case?
R. It’s complicated, but we’ll work on it in every way.
Q Is the release of Palestinian prisoners demanded by the families an option?
R. I won’t go into details because I don’t believe a public debate can help free a single hostage. But there are discreet channels and if there is an opportunity to release hostages, we will do it. I’m not saying what we’re ready for and what we’re not. As soon as you say, “I am willing to do X,” X becomes the starting point and you are asked to do twice as much.
Q I know you don’t want to talk about Netanyahu, but this is not a one or two week war, but a long process. Are you the person running it? Is it legitimate after what happened?
R. Netanyahu took office on October 7th. But also the defense minister, the chief of general staff and the head of Shabak [servicios secretos en Israel y Palestina]…and everyone wages war.
Q But they have accepted their responsibility.
R. The question is what you see as the main theme. For me it means winning the war. And that is why I decided to put all political questions aside and talk about a national emergency government on October 7th, which was formed five days later. We have worked and collaborated with Netanyahu for years. There were years when I was perhaps his biggest rival. But none of these things are relevant right now. Now we work together.
Q I’m talking more about whether people trust him.
R. We are in a democratic system. And he is prime minister because of the trust of the Knesset majority [Parlamento]. On October 7th we were in opposition and this is the situation. Anyone who talks about replacing Netanyahu… First of all, there is no practical way to do it; and secondly, it is not useful for the State of Israel. The question is not who you prefer as prime minister. That will be the case in other days.
Q He talked about Hitler and the Nazis. There is criticism of this, including the use of a Star of David by Gilad Erdan, Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations. Doesn’t this run the risk of trivializing the Holocaust?
R. No. I criticize those who criticize him. Hamas are Nazis. Their ideology is to destroy Israel and the Jews, that’s why they are Nazis.
Q I only heard the word Nazi here on October 7th when I was talking about Hamas…
R. The only difference between them and the German Nazis is their skills. If they had Nazi Germany’s they would exterminate everyone. They had less, they destroyed those they could. And the same goes for Hezbollah and Iran.
Q And that the Jews have a very powerful state and army.
R. The terminology reflects moral and realistic clarity about who we are facing. Another thing is the use of the yellow star. I wouldn’t have done it. I respect Gilad Erdan, he is my friend, I think his intention was good. The difference between then and now, however, is that Jews can defend themselves, something they were unable to do during the Holocaust.
Q And the use of the word Holocaust or mini-Holocaust?
R. It’s a mini-holocaust.
Q I’m talking about the status of the Holocaust as something incomparable, that was clear.
R. Do you know why it’s not comparable? Because of the scope. Because there are six million and 1,400. But imagine if, God forbid, they killed 7,000 Spaniards in one day.
Q Well, if you compare it to the Holocaust, we would rightly be told that it is not comparable.
R. It’s not the same scale, but there are communities and families that have been wiped out. I didn’t use those words, but it is the largest organized murder of Jews since the Holocaust. OK? It’s a fact. One lesson from the Holocaust is that when someone says they want to destroy you, they mean it. And now we face an enemy who says this and is amassing capabilities to achieve this. That is why we find ourselves at the most critical moment in the history of the State of Israel in its 75 years. If you do not understand the danger you face, you cannot act accordingly.
Q What horizon does it offer the Palestinians? They are against any withdrawal from the West Bank.
R. Their horizon is that Hamas does not rule in Gaza.
Q I mean, it tells them they’re not going to get statehood. So what can you expect?
R. We will not compromise our security. If the Palestinians want to change direction, stop the incitement in the education system, the ethos of murdering Jews and the payments to terrorists and their families, we will find that there is someone with whom they can make peace. We are a people who want to create peace.
Q He calls on them to renounce their own state.
R. Look what Israel has done. For peace with Egypt [1979], we returned the entire territory. It is very generous to win the war and return the territory. Except for one thing: Gaza. Egypt didn’t want us to give it back. Think about why. But otherwise they wanted every inch. There is nothing to talk about even the smallest concession. Until there is a fundamental change in the way they raise children, in their attitude towards terrorism… We have decided that there will be no more Palestinian workers. Let them manage, let them develop their economy.
Q To me, this speaks about what is happening in the West Bank and the extent of settler violence.
R. No. In Judea and Samaria [Cisjordania], the violence belongs to the Palestinians. Terrorism belongs to the Palestinians. If there are radicals from our territories carrying out operations, we must catch and punish them. It hurts us too that they do it. But the basis is terrorism. As long as there is no peace education, it will be empty conversations from which nothing will come.
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