Photo: Zachary Gray
The night before Paramore released their fifth studio album, This Is Why, they split list One of the things they thought about while working on the LP: agoraphobia. Cabin fever. American Psycho. One item read: “Confused about the difference between selfishness and self-preservation.”
“Making This Is Why wasn’t a pleasant experience for any of us,” says frontwoman Hayley Williams. The album wasn’t easy: there were worries stemming from the pandemic, but also the ongoing uncertainty that has accompanied Paramore over the last 20 years. This Is Why, which follows 2017’s breakthrough album After Laughter, was their first album recorded with the same lineup as the previous one: Williams with Zac Farro and Taylor York. When Paramore was nominated for Best New Artist at the 2008 Grammys, York had not yet joined the band. When they actually won, taking home best rock song in 2015 with “Ain’t It Fun,” a tumultuous dispute from five years earlier meant that Williams and York were ready, but Farro wasn’t.
“We grew up seeing each other’s worst sides and we still love each other,” Williams says. “I mean, look at all the shit we’ve been through. Our band has basically broken up a million times. And Zac, we found each other again. That’s what keeps me going. It also excites me to think: who would have thought we would get here? What the hell could happen in the next 20 years? We do not know it.”
“This Is Why” asks many questions that often go unanswered. What did you learn about yourself while making this record that surprised you?
That I am able to sit with a lot of discomfort. I’m always looking for comfort. Some of this is family of origin crap. Growing up there there was so much love, but it was a very broken family situation. As I got older and Paramore in particular had success, I could afford it [to say]“Okay, I’ll make a home for myself. I’m going to make it feel safe.” One of my core values is safety. It doesn’t have to look like much, but it does have to feel safe and secure. That’s why I constantly ask myself: “What is the most convenient route?” And it didn’t always help me. In fact, I would say it does more than just stop me from growing.
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How much of This Is Why was the result of engaging with the insights that emerged in After Laughter?
With “After Laughter,” I was disconnected from myself in such a different way. I had really let myself down. I wasn’t excited about life because I was hurting. I was in great emotional pain. When we wrote this record I had nothing to lose if I was really honest. I also wasn’t aware of what I was really talking about, like I didn’t really understand depression. I didn’t know anything about PTSD. I thought it was something you had to go to war with and come back with, you know? But by the time we finished the record, I had gotten used to talking about what that could be: depression.
Then I got the diagnosis and really tried to take care of myself. People talk about how anger and depression are so closely linked because depression is like turning our anger inward. And I think there’s parts of that anger mixed in with parts of this real understanding of how frustrating it can feel to wake up with depression. Depression because of your own choices, depression because of the state of the world, depression because of lost relationships, connections or goals. All this stuff is so heavy and you can’t control it. At this point in writing This Is Why – having learned about my own experiences and looked at them head-on – I think it’s interesting to reflect on how this is a fundamental point of fear, anxiety and fear is concern that “This Is Why” brings with it.
Speaking of inception, this is the first time Paramore’s lineup hasn’t changed between albums. Do you find that the three of you still surprise each other, having made five albums in the last 20 years?
Oh my god, yes. Somehow, in our thirties, we still retain the ability to appeal to the 11, 12, and 13-year-olds we all were when we met. We may still argue in the studio, we may still be afraid to show someone an idea, but we also make each other better.
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In fact, Zac just showed us his new Half Noise album. As a writer, he always surprises me because his voice is so good. He writes tunes that make me jealous and I’m like, “Damn, why didn’t I say that in the song?” And Taylor will write stuff and show it to me and Zac and I’ll be so scared like Hell, I should get involved as a singer.
Not only do they challenge me and teach me, and we all learn from each other; But my experience is a balance between the sense of challenge and intimidation I felt as a child when I first met them, and the feeling of being so empowered by them because they believe in me and we trust each other.
Paramore was nominated for Best New Artist at the 2008 Grammys and then won Best Rock Song in 2015. Do these awards mean anything different to you when you think about them being presented to Paramore in their current form?
Yes, we were nominated a few times and won. The only time we weren’t there was when we won, which is funny. But, oh man. I’m not at all shy about saying we want to win for Zac. That’s not why anyone sits in a studio banging their head against the wall trying to make great art, is it? However, Zac has never experienced this with us.
Zac was the first friend I ever made in the music industry. We only had our favorite bands on a burned CD. We learned to be a band together, we learned to be friends with each other. We met Taylor the same year, and that was in 2002. Despite everything we’ve been through, it almost feels like after Zac came back into the band after a six-year absence, we didn’t just have our man got back, but we also got ourselves back. We got a part of our childhood back. We got back what made us who we were. And it’s such a superpower when we’re together.
Fortunately, in the end we know that it doesn’t matter if you don’t win. You’re still yourself and you’re still capable of creating great art, with or without someone patting you on the back. But damn it, we want to experience it as the people we are today, with Zac, who is invaluable to this band creatively and personally. That’s the truth. It doesn’t always feel good to say, “We want to win.” But it would be sweet.
Paramore’s place in the “rock” conversation changes so often because of the fluidity of the band’s sound. What feeling do you remember when Paramore won Best Rock Song in 2015 for “Ain’t It Fun,” which has so many pop and gospel elements?
I was in Europe when I found out we were nominated – I couldn’t believe it, I wasn’t worried about whether we wouldn’t be nominated or whether we would. And then when we won, we didn’t go. I received a text from Taylor Swift and Taylor York in the same 30 seconds. Taylor, she just wrote me some capital letters like “[random noises] I’m so happy for you!” I was so shocked.
And then Taylor – maybe he even called me – choked up and had tears in his eyes because he couldn’t believe it. He was watching the pre-show and heard them saying our names. My ass didn’t even know that existed. We were really shocked, especially because we weren’t a rock band at the time compared to that category. We got a lot of criticism because we weren’t rockin’ like those other people. But it also meant a lot to me when people said, “You’re the first artist since Alanis to win this category.” [Morissette, in 1999].” I felt really honored and proud that Taylor and I wrote something that could be recognized in this way.
I always think about the albums that were released two or three years ago that were branded as “pandemic records.” Now everything that was written on these records is integrated into our everyday lives. The isolation, the fear, the lack of empathy – it’s all just part of a new normal. How did you think about the mirror This Is Why created for the outside world when you made it?
Making “This Is Why” wasn’t a pleasant experience for any of us. There was already a concern about getting back into the rhythm after a certain period of separation and creating something together. We hung out a lot, but we didn’t do anything. Zac did Half Noise and I did a couple of projects, one with Taylor that Zac was on. Saying, “Okay, we’re going with Paramore,” that caused fear. And then the world was still scary and nothing ever felt safe anymore, really.
I was very afraid of being around people who weren’t just in my bubble again. And knowing that I was going to come back into the world after finishing the record was really scary. Not because I thought, “I’m going to catch COVID.” I didn’t get COVID until we went back on tour. It was more about what that did to me in my head. Part of me had really gotten used to only seeing the people that I know personally and have all this context for – my family, my bandmates, whatever. And now I have to be with all kinds of people. People who probably don’t feel the same way or who we don’t belong to politically. I just don’t know how I’ll feel. I don’t know what that will look like. I don’t know if people will like this version of me and/or Paramore.
And experiencing together the fear of, “Wait, we have to invite the whole world back to our front door and we have to actually go and be outside when it’s time to be outside again?” It’s scary, but I think if you can sit with any discomfort, you just learn something. It will only make you grow. That’s where I’m safest.
Towards the end of the tour you got pneumonia and tried to get through it before making the decision to cancel so you could get better. What kind of dissonance did this create between your mind and your body?
Oh man, it was devastating. Touring is hard on the body, it’s hard on the brain. But the two hours you spend with the people at the trade fair cannot be compared to anything else. Especially when the world is literally collapsing around us, it’s a real gift to be able to experience people’s joy every evening, because it’s very easy to forget that this kind of joy exists when you’re just online or sees the news. That was really healing for me and I think it probably made me get through more shows than I should have gotten through, even the last show before we ultimately had to cancel the tour.
I knew I felt terrible, but I walked out with the guys during the intro and when I saw the people in front – some of whom I recognized very quickly – I thought, ‘This is OK.’ I’ll get through this. “ And I found myself coughing a lot, I tried to speak and it was difficult. It’s funny how you can really disconnect from that. The physical and spiritual experience you have on stage is at the same time somehow the most present I’ve ever had in my body, and at the same time it’s this out-of-body, wonderful soul experience that you can’t replicate through anything else.
Are you closer to understanding the difference between selfishness and self-preservation?
I’m still trying. I recently spoke to Zac and Taylor about this. Somewhere in the middle of this tour we all started to really get excited about making new music again. We’re just ready to be back in the studio. And we still have a lot of shows – we’re doing the Eras tour next summer, we’ve got the New Zealand/Australia tour and there’s a few dates early next year. But there is something we can all finally process, about the last few years of the band, but also about what exists. There are a lot of lessons that have remained on the surface, like when you try to rub lotion on it and it just stays on your skin and you think, “Gross.”
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But I think there are things now that weren’t possible before. I’m glad that we can actually move forward and know more or be more than you were before. I’m ready for it and I feel it. Every day it says: “Must be present. Must be here.” Amazing things happen every day, whether it’s at work or just when I’m with my dog and taking a long walk, you know? I have to be here now.
This story is part of Rolling Stone’s fourth annual Grammy Preview issue, published ahead of the first round of voting on October 13. We featured SZA on the cover, spoke to some of the year’s biggest artists about the albums and singles that could win them a statue in February, made our top predictions for the nominees in the top categories, and more with a have provided a complete guide on what to look out for in the run-up to the 2024 awards ceremony.