“WAR IS A DEFEAT, TWO STATES ARE NEEDED”
Q. Your Holiness, I would like to start with October 7, when Hamas militants entered Israeli kibbutzim and carried out a massacre. I want to ask you what you felt when you looked at these pictures and what you felt then when you looked at the pictures of the bombings in Gaza?
A. Every war is a defeat. Nothing can be solved with war. Nothing. With peace and dialogue everything will be achieved. They entered the kibbutzim and took hostages. You killed someone. And then the reaction. The Israelis go and take these hostages to save them. In war, one slap provokes another. One strong and the other even stronger and so it goes on. War is a defeat. I felt it was another defeat. Two peoples that have to live together. With this clever solution: two peoples, two states. The Oslo Accords: two very limited states and Jerusalem with special status.
“The darkest hour, the problem is the weapons industries*
Q. In the last few days in the peace prayer you have said: “It is the darkest hour.” This is a very dark hour.
A. Very dark. One does not find the ability to reflect clearly, and in the darkest hour I add: another defeat. It’s been like this since the last world war, from 1945 to today, one defeat after another because the wars haven’t stopped. But the biggest problem is still the arms industry. A person who is familiar with investments and whom I met at a meeting told me that the investments that bring in the most income today are weapons factories.
“I call the religious in Gaza every day, there are 563 people in the community”
Q. Have you heard about the religious people who remained in Gaza? What have they told you and have you heard anything from them recently?
A. I call them every day and there is an Argentine nun there too, and the parish priest was in Bethlehem when all this broke out and he couldn’t return because he had gone to Bethlehem to buy medicine. He is now in Jerusalem but cannot enter it. And I call the Egyptian deputy priest, Father Yussuf, every day and he tells me: “But this is terrible, now they have bombed the hospital, but they respect us in the parish, in the parish we have 563 people.” all Christians and even some Muslims. Sick children cared for by Mother Teresa’s nuns. 563 people live in this small community. I called him before I came and every day I try to accompany her. At the moment, thank God, the Israel Defense Forces respect this community.
“Unfortunately, we are now getting used to horror and wars. We don’t have to get used to it.”
Q. It seems that the war is almost no longer news, as if it has become a habit.
A. I remember a very difficult moment at the beginning of the pontificate when the war in Syria broke out with such violence and I held a prayer ceremony in the square where Christians and also Muslims prayed and brought the carpet to pray. This is a very hard moment. For me it’s a bad thing, but it’s not nice to say that, you get used to it, unfortunately you get used to it. We don’t have to get used to it.
Q. Do you fear a global escalation?
“There is a possibility of escalation, that would be the end of many things”
A. It would be the end of many things and many lives. I think human wisdom stops these things. Yes, there is a possibility, but… and this war affects us because of what it means. Israel, Palestine, the Holy Land, Jerusalem, but also Ukraine affects us because they are nearby. But there are many other wars that do not concern us: Kivu, Yemen, Myanmar with the Rohingya, who are martyrs. The world is at war, but the arms industry is behind it.
“ANTISEMITISM IS THERE, IT’S HIDDEN, THE HOLOCAUSE WASN’T ENOUGH”
Q. Some death camp survivors have compared the attack on the kibbutzim to a new Holocaust. Do you fear a resurgence of anti-Semitism?
A. Unfortunately, anti-Semitism remains hidden. You can see it, young people for example, doing something here and there. It is true that in this case it is very big, but there is always something anti-Semitic and it is not always enough to see the Holocaust that they committed in World War II, those 6 million killed, enslaved and it is not over . Unfortunately it didn’t pass. I won’t be able to explain it and I have no explanation, it’s a fact that I see it and I don’t like it.
“UKRAINIAN PEOPLE ARE MARTYRS; TO STOP! SEEK A PEACE AGREEMENT”
Q. There is currently little talk about the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, in which the Vatican has invested heavily. However, the Ukrainian response to the Vatican’s attempts did not always meet your expectations. Why?
A. I think about this war of the Ukrainian people, we must not judge it today. The Ukrainian people are a martyred people; they experienced persecutions during Stalin’s time that were very damaging. It is a martyred people. I read a memorial book about it and about the terrible martyrdom, it was terrible, Siberia… it was a people that suffered a lot and now everything makes them relive it, I understand them and I received President Zelensky, I I understand, but we need peace. To stop! Stop for a while and look for a peace agreement. Agreements are the real solution to this. For both.
“I WANTED TO GO TO KIEV AND MOSCOW, I HAD A LOT OF PRISONERS FREED, ALSO FROM AZOV”
Q. Have you ever thought about traveling to Gaza in the last few days, as you would have liked to travel to Kiev or Moscow recently?
A. On the second day of the war in Ukraine I went to the Russian embassy, I felt that I had to go there and I said I was ready to go to Putin if it would be of any use. The good ambassador, he’s ready now, an official from Russia. And from that moment on I had a good conversation with the Russian embassy. When I presented prisoners, I went there and they freed them, they also freed them from the AZOV. In short, the embassy did very well in releasing those people who were able to be freed. But the dialogue stopped there. At that moment Lavrov wrote to me: “Thank you if you want to come, but it is not necessary.” I wanted to go in both directions.
“EUROPA HELPS ITALY IN THE OTHER COUNTRIES WHERE MIGRANTS LAND”
Q. Unfortunately, people are also getting used to migrant deaths at sea. You have spoken several times about crimes against humanity. Why are thousands of migrants still dying at sea today? What should Europe do and what has it not done so far? Why did he leave Italy alone?
A. I am the son of migrants, but in Argentina, in my opinion, there are 46 million, and only the indigenous people there are no more than 6 million. The others are all migrants. It is really a country made up of migrations: Italians, Spaniards, Ukrainians, Russians, the entire Middle East. And many from the Middle East, for example in Argentina, we call them Turks because they came from the great Ottoman Empire with Turkish passports and I’m used to living in a country of immigrants. My father worked at the Bank of Italy and went there as an immigrant, he stayed there and died there, he raised a family there. For me, the experience of migration is a powerful existential thing, not in light of the tragedy of now. In the post-war period there were bad migrations, but today it is always a very dramatic thing and there are five countries that suffer the most from migration: Cyprus, Greece, Malta, Italy and Spain. They are the ones who receive the most. Then when these migrants from Africa come from Libya, we see the cruelty of the Libyan concentration camps, there is a cruelty, terrible, I always recommend reading a book written by one of these migrants, more than three years before his arrival from Ghana Spain: In Spanish it is called “Little Brother”, “Hermanito”. A short book, but it tells about the atrocities of migration. What we have seen in Calabria recently is terrible. Europe must show solidarity with them, these five countries cannot accept everyone and the governments of Europe must enter into dialogue. There are small, empty towns with ten, fifteen elderly people, and they need people to go there and work. There is a migration policy with the steps of migration: reception, support, support and integration into the labor market. Let them fit in. And such a migration policy is costly. But I’m thinking of Sweden, which did a good job during the time of Latin American dictatorships. There are a lot of Latin Americans there, and they settled them immediately: the migrant would arrive the next day to learn the language and then settle down to work. Integrate. But if you don’t integrate the migrant, there is a problem. The terrorist attack at Zaventem airport in Belgium always comes to mind: the children were all migrants, but not integrated migrants, they were closed migrants, and that is bad. A migration policy must be constructive and pan-European for the good of the country and one’s own well-being. I liked it when the President of the European Commission went to Lampedusa to see: “I like this because she is trying to endure this.”
The church is a woman, the future is a woman, but it’s about ordinations…”
Q. What future do you see for women in the life of the church?
A. Here, for example in the Vatican, there are more women in the workplace, for example the deputy governor of the Vatican City State is a woman, a nun, and the governor has a more general role, but she is the one who calls the shots. There are six cardinals and six laypeople on the Economic Council; five of these six laypeople are women. Then there are already secretaries instead of monsignors: the secretary of consecrated life is a woman with holistic human development, a woman, in the commission for the selection of bishops there are three women, because women understand things that we do not understand, women have it I believe that they should be included in the normal work of the church because they are a special instinct for the situation and it is necessary.
Q. The extra step?
A. You are talking about orders. This is a theological problem, not an administrative problem. Women can do anything in the church, even if you can have a governor, that’s not a problem. But from the theological, ministerial point of view, they are different things: the Peter principle, that is, that of jurisdiction, and the Marian principle, which is the most important, because the church is female, the church is bride, the church is not male, she is female. It takes a theology to understand this, and the power of the female church and women in the church is stronger and more important than that of male pastors. Mary is more important than Peter because the church is female. But if we want to reduce this to functionalism, we lose.
“BUDGET OF THE POSITIVE SYNOD”
Q. What do you think of the synod?
A. The result is positive. We spoke completely freely about everything. And that is a beautiful thing and it was possible to produce a final document to be studied in this second part for the next session in October, like that of the family, this too is a synod in two stages. I believe that we have arrived at precisely the practice of synodality that St. Paul VI did. at the end of the Council because he recognized that the Western Church had lost the synodal dimension that the Eastern Church has.
“Abolishing celibacy for priests does not solve the vocation crisis”
Q. Could abolishing priestly celibacy help overcome the vocation crisis?
A. It is a positive law, it is not a natural law: priests in the Eastern Catholic Churches can marry, and instead in the Western Churches since the 12th century, I believe, there has been a discipline that began with celibacy. But it is a law that can be repealed, there is no problem. I don’t think it helps. Because the problem is different. It does not help. It is true that this would eliminate a very bad quality of some priests: they are “virgins.” I don’t know if that’s what they say in Italian, the spirituality of the virgins. The priest must be a father, he must be involved in a community. Sometimes it really bothers me when the priest looks inside himself and makes himself look holy. I don’t like that because it means you lose contact. I remember once meeting a guy, I think 65, who was the pastor of three villages in the mountains, each village had five hundred souls. I told him, how do you do that? Do you know the people? He smiled and said, “I even know the name of the people’s dog.” These priests who are there are true church fathers. If the priest comes back a little “exquisite,” we lose.
“HOMOSEXUAL? THE CHURCH WELCOMES ALL, BAPTISM IS ENOUGH”
Q. The issue of homosexual couples was also raised in the synod. He is satisfied?
A. When I say “everyone, everyone, everyone,” it’s the people. The church welcomes people, everyone, and does not ask what they are like. Then everyone grows and matures in their Christian affiliation. It is true that it is somewhat fashionable to talk about it these days. The church welcomes everyone. Another thing is when there are organizations that want to participate. The principle is: The church welcomes everyone who can be baptized. Organizations cannot be baptized. people do.
“THE EVILS OF THE CHURCH? RATZINGER has done a lot to combat this and we are continuing.”
Q. In one of our previous meetings you spoke about how Pope Benedict XVI. Handed you two boxes of documents and told you, “I’ve made it this far, now it’s your turn.”
A. I continued. There was a lot of cleaning. They were all cases of abuse and even some of the Curia were sent away. Pope Ratzinger was courageous in this. He took this problem into his own hands, gave it many steps, and then handed it over to completion. This continues. Abuse, whether conscientious, sexual or anything else, should not be tolerated. It is contrary to the gospel, the gospel is service, not abuse, and we see many episcopates who have done good work investigating sexual abuse, but also others. We don’t have the culture to address abuse: For example, the statistics I received from an international organization that deals with this issue say that 42 to 46 percent of abuse takes place in families or neighborhoods and people form the habit have to cover everything up. That’s bad, that’s bad.
“There is still a lot to do to combat pedophilia”
Q. The church has done a lot in the fight against pedophilia
A. Yes, a lot has been done, but there is still a lot to do.
“HARDEST MOMENT OF THE PONTIFICATE? Breakout of war in Syria. I did not know, what I should do.
Q. What was the most difficult moment of your pontificate?
A. Maybe it was difficult and hard when I had to oppose the war in Syria, I said on the pitch. I didn’t know what to do, it was very difficult. I wasn’t used to something like that and also the fear of making mistakes and causing damage. It was difficult. There were also some simple and not so simple moments. But the Lord has always helped me to find a solution or at least to be patient and wait for the solution.
“What will the church be like after me? Beware of the backwards movements.
Q. What kind of church will it be after you?
A. The Lord knows, but there is always the melancholy of the past. That comes. Something that is present in institutions and also in the church. They are the ones I want to return to, they are the “backwards”. Who do not accept that the church is moving forward, that it is on the way. Because the church is always moving, it must grow. And even the way of being church must grow from the roots with the three very beautiful principles of Vincent de Lerins, that first century father. From the root it grows like the sap in the tree, but always hanging on the root, a church that detaches itself from the roots goes backwards and loses that sap of healthy tradition, which is not conservatism, no. The tradition is growing. And things have to move forward. Consider, for example, the death penalty. Today it is said that the death penalty is immoral. Even one grows up in slavery. Slaves were once normal. Today they are not normal. The moral conscience also grows. The possession of nuclear weapons.
“What is a Pope afraid of? THE HOLY WAR, YES, EVEN THE POPE IS FEAR”
Q. What is a pope afraid of?
A. Little fears arise. Let this or that happen. The war in the Holy Land scares me. These people, how will this story end? But it will be resolved before the Lord. Not that the fears will go away. But they remain human, so to speak. It’s good to have fears.
“I don’t feel like a left-wing pope”
Q. Do you consider yourself a left-wing pope?
A. I don’t like it on the right or left side. These are qualifications that are not real. The real qualifications are: Is it consistent, is it not consistent? The things he suggests are consistent with the roots or are strange things. Just remember that Saint Paul VI. everything was said about him because he was an innovator. And there was nothing left-wing or communist about him. If these qualifications are a bit loose. Yes, I know that right and left it is not easy to understand what it means.
“I WILL GO TO DUBAI FOR COOP 28; IT TAKES COURAGE TO DEFEND THE ENVIRONMENT”
Q. The Holy See has signed the Paris Accords. They have denounced the international community’s lack of attention to the climate emergency. Are you worried that COP 28 will end in a stalemate? Are you going to Dubai?
A. Yes, I will go to Dubai. I think I’ll postpone December 1st until December 3rd. I will stay there for three days. I remember when I went to the European Parliament in Strasbourg and President Hollande sent Environment Minister Ségolène Royal to receive me and she asked me: “But are you preparing something on the environment?” Do it before the Paris meeting . I called some scholars here who hurried to publish “Laudato Sì,” which was published before Paris. And the meeting in Paris was the best of all. After Paris, everyone took a step backwards and it takes courage to move forward here. After “Laudato si’,” five important oil field officials asked for an appointment. Everyone has to justify themselves… it takes courage. A country that is an island in the Pacific Ocean is buying land in Samoa to relocate because it will no longer exist in twenty years due to rising sea levels. But we don’t believe that. We still have time to stop. Our future is at stake. The future of our children and grandchildren. It requires some responsibility. I like to talk about the fishermen of San Benedetto del Tronto. Good people who visited me and told me that I don’t know how many tons of plastic they take with them and don’t throw back into the sea. They lose money to repair and clean the sea a little. We have been poor stewards of creation.
“The last time I went to the sea was in 1975…”
Q. When was the last time you were by the sea?
A. I’ll tell you straight away: ’75. I like the ocean. In 1976 I had to leave, but it was said that there would be a coup, I was a provincial and told the community: “You go, I’ll stay just in case.” And then the coup came. And from there they did not return to the sea. I like the sea, I like it very much.
“My girlfriend was good, she worked in the cinema”
Q. Have you ever gotten engaged before taking your wedding vows?
A. Yes. A very good girl. He worked in the cinema. It was good. Then the Archbishop of Rosario found her in a parish with her husband and children.
From my previous life I miss the family and the mother who taught me music.
ùD. What do you miss from your old life?
A. The lives before are fond memories: the family, the family culture, how our mother taught us music. For example, every Saturday there was an opera on state radio and Mother taught us: “Listen, that’s Othello, now he’s killing her!” Mom taught us everything.
“I HAVE NEVER BEEN AFRAID OF LOSING FAITH, BUT THE LORD IS NOT A MANDARK”
Q. Has your faith ever wavered?
A. In the sense of losing it, no. But in the sense of not hearing it and walking on dark paths: Where is the Lord? You feel like the Lord is hiding, where is he alone? Or we go back and move away from him. And where are you, Lord? And why don’t you fix that? And you feel the Lord telling you inside of you, because I don’t have a magic wand. The Lord is not Mandrake, no. It’s another matter.
“The Pope is fine, they opened my stomach and washed me, all that was missing was the soap”
Q. How is the Pope today?
A. Still alive, you know. I have a knee problem that is improving. Now I can walk well and then I had two operations on my stomach: the first for diverticulitis in the transverse colon, a piece was removed and then what happens when you open your stomach. And the last time I had surgery. You washed yourself, I saw the film. All that was missing was soap. They washed away the adhesions. And now I’m fine. I can eat anything.
“MARADONA AND MESSI, TWO CHAMPIONS, BUT I PREFER PELE”
Q. The eighth Golden Ball was awarded to Messi. Who do you prefer between Maradona and Messi?
A. I say a third. Pele. These are the three I followed. Maradona as a great player, a great player. But as a man he failed. The poor fellow has resigned himself to the judgment of those who praised him and did not help him. He visited me here in the first year of his pontificate and then the poor guy was exhausted. It’s strange: so many players are miserable. Even boxing. Messi is very right. He’s a gentleman. But for me Pelé is the great master of these three. A man with a heart. I spoke to Pelé, I met him once on the plane when I was in Buenos Aires, we talked. A man of such great humanity. The three of them are great. Each with its own specialty. Messi is good at the moment. And Pele was good.
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