After returning from a mission in Zagreb, Croatia, the deputy foreign minister once again delved into the dossier on the conflict between Israel and Hamas. The proximity of Edmondo Cirielli to the Jewish community is no secret, and even before the assignment that Giorgia Meloni received at the head of the Farnesina, the representative of the Fratelli d’Italia was concerned with the Palestinian issue: from humanitarian aid to the population of Gaza, which in the fight against the fringe groups of Islamic fundamentalism “in some cases ended up in the hands of NGOs close to terrorists”. From his office at the ministry, he tells Open how Italian diplomacy is proceeding to resolve the conflict and what, in his opinion, are the coordinates to understand the reasons for Italian support for Israel.
Deputy Minister, some analysts have noted that the European Union is now being relegated to the role of an NGO institution, useful in international scenarios for providing assistance, but becoming irrelevant in terms of geopolitical balances. What is true about this story?
“There is some truth to it, but it is exaggerated: the EU exercises soft power and manages to influence some scenarios laterally.” But when it comes to big decisions, Europe has weight because the influence is exercised by individual heads of government. Just think of the Ukraine issue. However, there is obviously a short circuit in this Palestinian issue. Unfortunately, the error lies in a certain left-wing culture promoted in the 1970s by European parties with communist roots in the service of the USSR. Their ideas took root and persisted even after the USSR disappeared. Some on the left are blinded by what I call “the Palestinian paradox,” in which only the Palestinians are the good guys while the Israelis are portrayed as mere occupiers. It is an idea that the USSR supported, not because it really believed in it, but to undermine the State of Israel, which is the US’s staunchest ally in the region. A useful and instrumental Vulgate for Soviet purposes.
Why do you say that this “Vulgate” still exists in the institutions of European countries?
“I attended an EU ministerial meeting a month ago at the latest and I remember that Josep Borrell attacked Israel very strongly when he spoke about the Palestinian issue. There is a new form of anti-Semitism in Europe, which is expressed in the rejection of the Israeli state. To return to the first question: I believe that the EU will discover its true strength on the international stage when the European Parliament has a clear, defined majority of homogeneous political forces, which in my opinion are center-right. Then the European Commission will be the reflection of the parties and it will be possible to act in accordance with their values.”
Speaking of NGOs and humanitarian aid, is there any evidence that some resources from Italy intended for civilians in Gaza ended up in the hands of Hamas?
“I know the topic very well because both Andrea Delmastro and I have asked several questions in previous legislative periods. We have ample evidence that in the past some of the Italian cooperation funds went to NGOs supporting Hamas. For example, there was the case of an Italian NGO that financed educational materials for children in Gaza: with the money from the Italian cooperation, some anti-Semitic brochures were actually printed and distributed in schools. Those were the years when the Democratic Party was in government. This story is also useful for illustrating another aspect of the problem, namely the deep hatred of Israelis that Hamas has fomented among the population of Gaza over the years. However, the NGO in question apologized and dismissed the incident as an oversight that would not be repeated. Something similar happened with UNWRA, the United Nations organization that provides humanitarian support to the Palestinians.
Part of the funding for the collaboration comes from his ministry. Will you block funding for NGOs operating in Gaza?
«When I took office, I immediately pushed for the end use of resources to be more strictly controlled. I believe that since then it has never happened again that funds have ended up in the hands of Hamas. For example, there is this United Nations agency, UNRWA, which supports the Palestinians in Gaza, but we know that part of its aid reaches Hamas indirectly, also thanks to the dictatorial and all-encompassing power that the terrorist organization exercises in the Gaza Strip. It is an agency that is also heavily financed by the USA. I personally had a number of investigations carried out because the suspicion existed long before the attack on October 7th. I did not stop Italian funding of UNRWA outright, but I did suspend it. I have asked for an in-depth audit to be carried out before disbursing the approximately 7 million euros that Italy should have made available at the beginning of 2023. The assessment was still in progress when the Hamas war hit us. I would like to emphasize that I did not want to block these 7 million from the outset, but simply wanted to wait until our cooperation agency completed its findings on UNRWA. What is certain is that in this case it is no longer appropriate to give the green light for financing. Also because, given the dictatorial control that Hamas exercises in Gaza, the accusation that the Palestinian personnel hired by UNRWA are actually chosen by terrorists is plausible. I’ll be honest and admit that even on the American side there was often a fundamental ambiguity in the policy of humanitarian aid: they believed that they could keep terrorists at bay by providing resources. In short, money in exchange for peace, and it didn’t work.
Are you working on a humanitarian plan that affects the citizens of Gaza, or is the issue considered premature?
“Israel rightly aims to defeat Hamas and take temporary control of Gaza.” It is a stated goal from the outset and will be achieved at any cost. The Israelis know full well that this will result in numerous casualties among both their soldiers and civilian hostages. Likewise, they know very well that casualties among Palestinian civilians are inevitable, also because Hamas usually uses them as human shields. But to be clear: Israel is at war. Assured that the Israelis will continue to do everything possible to avoid casualties among the population, I would like to remind you that international law and the laws of war do not punish the killing of civilian victims in court, but do penalize and prohibit the intentional killing of civilians. Let me give you an example: If I besiege a city in which terrorists or soldiers are barricaded and people are also dying, I am not violating international law. The military action launched by Israel is defensive because its internal security has been undermined. If civilians unfortunately die in such an action, Israel cannot be blamed. Also because Israel has always been surgical. Now, however, extreme precision could become the enemy of the ongoing military campaign and increase casualties among the Israeli military. However, another thing that should be highlighted in this speech is that Israel has called on the civilian population of Gaza to leave.”
However, if they flee, the refugees face enormous humanitarian problems: we are talking about over a million people who have been asked to flee the northern part of the Gaza Strip.
“If we could just set up a refugee camp on the border in Egypt, it would also be easier for Italy to help Palestinian civilians.” As deputy minister, I would be the first to support forms of substantial aid for Palestinian refugees, like we are doing Syrians who have fled Assad and are living in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan. There are huge refugee camps there where it is easier and less complicated to receive Western help. I am convinced that, first and foremost, it is much better for Palestinians to flee this war zone than to remain trapped in Gaza while Israel is rightly determined to destroy and disarm Hamas. Rightly so, because the invasion that took place for half a day on Saturday, October 7th showed what would happen to the Jews if there was no strong state like Israel to protect them. I would like to say more: I believe that the ferocity of the militiamen surprised the leaders of Hamas and Iran. I don’t think they expected so much beastly hatred. However, spreading anti-Semitic books among children and stoking ethnic hatred on a daily basis creates a racist population. This is a very serious problem that needs to be addressed once Hamas is defeated. When the terrorists are defeated, Gaza must be rebuilt by the Palestinians under strict Israeli and UN control. Little by little it could be entrusted to the Palestinian Authority, which in my opinion is the institution that has proven itself to be the most reliable in the past. Although it has recently received funding from Iran and other Islamic fundamentalist powers. Believe me, the Palestinians will live better after the destruction of Hamas and the reconstruction of Gaza than under the dictatorship of these terrorists.”
In the humanitarian corridors, Crosetto offered Italy’s willingness to cooperate in the administration. Do you agree?
“I confirm that there is full availability from Italy.”
One point must be made clear: should Israel be supported at all costs without taking into account the human lives of Gazans?
“Those in the West who say: “total support for Israel, but in accordance with international law” are arguing with banality. It is clear that Israel and all Western democracies are expected to respect international law, human rights and the Geneva Convention. I have no reason to doubt that Israel thought for a single moment about hurting them. They are dictatorships that have no respect for rights. Then I repeat: A military defensive action like the one Israel is carrying out in the Gaza Strip does not necessarily mean that it cannot lead to collateral casualties. However, it is absurd to cast doubt on the actions of Israel, which must ensure its own security after an attack. And it is absurd to doubt this when you look at the past few years: In order to respect international law, Israel has accepted higher losses in its military despite its war power. It’s normal: if you protect civilians as much as possible, you put your soldiers at greater risk. It is regrettable that at this moment Israel is being attacked in the media by those who want to convey the message that the West does not respect international law.”
There are military actions that are considered contradictory, such as the bombing near the Rafah crossing while civilians were fleeing the Gaza Strip.
“It is a narrative full of propaganda. Whenever possible, Israel always warns before bombing a building or area where civilians are present and urges them to escape before dropping the bombs. Israel has been inviting Palestinians to flee Gaza for days, but it is Hamas that is forcing civilians to stay to use them as shields. The Rafah crossing was bombed because there were armed groups nearby preventing Palestinians from leaving Gaza and because Hamas’s movement of weapons had been noticed at that time. The Israeli bombing near the border crossing was intended to prevent its abuse, and in any case no civilian casualties were reported in this action. It is in Israel’s interest for Gaza’s civilians to flee to safety and leave the Gaza Strip so that they can defeat Hamas without bloodshed.”
With which countries is cooperation at the level of mediation that Italy carries out with foreign governments currently the most intense?
“Traditionally, we recognize that some Arab countries play a positive role in the region. Particularly Egypt and Jordan, as they are two nations that have been involved in wars against Israel in the past. Then they achieved peace through mediation, including through the transfer of parts of the territory. Then there is Saudi Arabia, where the young Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has demonstrated a genuine openness to the West and a path based on détente and peace in the Middle East. But let us be clear: pacification is one thing, the defeat of the Hamas dictatorship is another: on this second point, Israel is rightly inflexible. I repeat: the time to rebuild Gaza will come later and we can start again. But first Hamas must be dismantled.”
Aren’t we working on a surrender of the terrorists without a fight?
“We are also working in this direction, but we cannot take a step back from Israel’s goal: to destroy Hamas by murdering its members, by imprisoning them and perhaps even by providing them with safe conduct in third countries.” Only then will the discussions between Israel and the Hamas Palestinians on the “Two Peoples, Two States” solution, a solution that faces no a priori resistance from the Israelis.”
Does Italy act autonomously in these situations, already following the lines of good bilateral relations, or does it act in agreement with other EU countries?
“Our foreign minister is taking a very aggressive approach. Today – October 13th – he is in Israel. Then he will go to Jordan. I would like to point out that Antonio Tajani underlines the condemnation of Hamas in every statement and diplomatic action. Hamas has pulled out of the peace talks. Hamas must be eliminated and destroyed from a political and military perspective. Our government does not deviate from this line, which is Israel’s. “You can’t negotiate with terrorists, you can’t negotiate with a racist, terrorist organization that makes dictatorship their hallmark of government.”
It is a shame that the European Union does not act as one: its institutions would have a greater impetus.
“This is an old EU vice that Meloni has been denouncing for some time. So far, Europe has preferred to deal with food labels rather than major problems. My hope is that after the next elections the EU will stop being a union of bureaucrats and bankers and prevail on important strategic issues such as common defense, immigration and pandemics.”
Has attention to Italy’s internal security increased? How is your ministry, the Home Office, the Ministry of Defense and the government in general responding to this matter?
“Apparently Meloni and Tajani immediately held a summit with Guido Crosetto and Matteo Piantedosi, with the heads of the armed forces, the heads of the police forces and the heads of the secret services. It was necessary to increase vigilance in sensitive points and in general throughout the national territory.”
Why was it necessary?
“Because in Italy there is a part of the radicalized Muslim population. There is a lot of fake news circulating on social media these days and we must be careful not to explode the racial hatred and anti-Semitism that exists in Italy, both in communities of fundamentalist Muslim immigrants and in far-left groups. Personally, I believe it is necessary to have a firm grip on these realities.”
Last question: Due to Hamas aggression, the Italy-Africa Conference was postponed. Could this conflict have consequences for the Mattei Plan and Meloni’s foreign policy efforts?
“It certainly increases the difficulties, but it also increases the need to implement the Mattei plan.” Let’s think about it: the war in Ukraine triggered the food crisis in Africa. This conflict between Israel and Hamas could also lead to tensions on this continent, given the large number of Muslims in Africa. And that’s precisely why Meloni’s Piano Mattei proves to be a great intuition.”
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