Gemma Ubasart (Castellar del Vallès, 1978) has been in charge of Justice, Rights and Remembrance for the past six months, a department that traditionally has little political weight but manages a complex area: prisons. “The problems of society are reflected in prison,” says Ubasart from his office in Barcelona’s Zona Franca, where he has just presented the study showing that 21% of prisoners in Catalan prisons re-offend after five years, a figure , which is well below the European average (40%) and which, in his opinion, “supports the Catalan prison model” and focuses on reintegration. The former general secretary of Podem, appointed advisor by Republican Pere Aragonès, is committed to deepening this model and making prison the “last resort”, a place where prisoners spend the necessary time because they extend the sentences, even if this goes against the opinion of the population and, contrary to the majority political discourse, tends to put a brake on reintegration.
Questions. What does the study say about relapses?
Answer. Among other things, that if the discharge is from an open environment, the recidivism decreases by 12 points. Makes sense. In an open environment, contact with the family and the world of work is reestablished… There is an accompanied transition into social life, which makes it easier to work through the causes that led to a crime.
Q To say that the less time in prison the better, doesn’t that contradict the majority discourse of demanding ever harsher sentences?
R Yes, that’s why we have to do a lot of pedagogy. Scientific evidence tells us that the less prison time, the less recidivism. In other words, the fact that prison sentences are long does not facilitate reintegration; on the contrary, after a certain period of time, reintegration, which is the main objective, becomes more difficult.
Q Aren’t you proposing to abolish prisons?
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R No. We need to combine the time in prison with lots of treatment, activity and accompaniment in the open environment. And explain that prison is very hard. This affects the physical and mental health of the occupants and disconnects them from their environment. The less we have to use the prison, the better. In the juvenile justice system there is a majority consensus on detention as a last resort and some laws accompanying this idea; Why shouldn’t it be possible in adult law?
Q Much is said about the inmates and their circumstances, but are the victims still, as they denounce, the largely forgotten in the criminal process?
R Yes, we are still very focused on the sentences, how many years they are given, and not what happens to the victims, what they need and how we can accompany and compensate them. The sacrifice has been placed in the middle, but there is still a long way to go.
Q The data shows that attacks on officers and among inmates have increased.
R Yes, the increase is obvious, the data is public. The severe ones remain stable, but the mild ones have increased significantly.
Q Because?
R Partly due to the post-pandemic context that has led to the emergence of more mental health problems. We have the hypothesis that part of the problem is that the Catalan model, based on a lot of intervention, a lot of activity and a lot of prison life, has not been able to work during the pandemic. And that’s noticed. The profile of inmates has also changed and addictions have increased. And there is a socio-economic factor. Society is more stressed and so are prisons.
Q What are you going to do?
R We are concerned about the safety of workers and inmates and coexistence in prisons. A group was formed and action came out; B. More use of prison information for conflict prevention or architectural improvements in DERTs [Departamento Especial de Régimen Cerrado, por sus siglas en catalán, donde permanecen los presos en aislamiento].
Q The DERTs are in the crosshairs of prison rights groups due to the number of suicides and incidents.
R Even if it sounds contradictory, a lot has to be intervened at DERT, because whoever is there certainly needs the most support. It’s not enough to close the door, and that’s it.
Q He inherited a controversy over the circular on mechanical restraints for prisoners. Ester Capella (ERC) approved a circular that made it virtually impossible to subject them to these restrictions and her successor, Lourdes Ciuró (Junts), said it had led to an increase in attacks and wrote another. Will you keep up the Ciuró circular?
R Our bet is to move towards zero containment in both prisons and healthcare because that is how international organizations send us. But we will evaluate how this circular works to have empirical evidence and then make decisions. It would be very noticeable to pick it up, but we believe things shouldn’t be done that way. We will not enter into a circular war. In this country we have a legalistic obsession when it comes to what public policies we implement.
Ubasart, during the interview MASSIMILIANO MINOCRI
Q Pilot plans that Justice is currently investigating or has underway include the use of a personal defense gas. Why is this government considering this?
R It is a very small and controlled pilot. In some cases, when an attack occurs and the intervention team arrives, the workers thought it was a good idea. Not being closed to the evidence, we agree to conduct a test to analyze pros and cons. It’s not working yet.
Q Another of her tasks as an advisor is the Democratic Memory Section. They just passed a bill that would include this content in elementary education. Do you understand that they can be accused of indoctrination?
R No, on the contrary. The law speaks of democratic memories that are plural. But we think it is interesting to develop teaching materials so that schools can follow this thread of democratization, of experiences that have allowed them to gradually acquire rights. This is the spirit of explaining how we came to democracy and how we defend it.
Q The collaboration of the Generalitat is also envisaged to study Francoist oppression. Isn’t that a toast to the sun?
R We do not seek punishment, nor do we want it. But it captures the legal truth. Just by opening a process, there is already a repair process. As in the case of Cipriano Martos. Opening a grave, recovering a corpse, and honoring the memory of that person is already making amends for the family.
Q Is it feasible, as they propose, to remove all Francoist symbols in two years?
R Yes, many have already withdrawn and their presence in public spaces in Catalonia is reduced.
Q Will it be the advisor who sees the removal of the Francoist monument from Tortosa?
R Hopefully. Only formal issues remain, which should be resolved shortly.
Q Can one speak of state repression against the independence movement in 2023?
R What there are are cases that should be removed in court. This path is already being taken with the suppression of hate speech or pardons. But you have to keep going.
Q Do you think this repression was used to defend other behaviors? For example in the case of Laura Borràs.
R Invoking de-judiciary can be a tool to use in court, but…
Q Would Borràs have to move away? He’s already said he won’t.
R It’s not my place to say that. All I can say is that it is important for Parliament to function normally.
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