Celine Song’s beautiful debut film Past Lives, which Slate’s Sam Adams called “the first big movie of 2023,” opens with a trio in a bar: an Asian man and woman eagerly chatting, and obviously a white man , sitting next to the third wheel. We hear observers trying to figure out who these people are to one another: lovers? Friends? ex-boyfriends? The film travels back in time and introduces us to the Asian couple Hae Sung and Nora as children. We follow them into adulthood where they are played by Greta Lee and Teo Yoo. It’s a long time before we meet White Arthur. Nora gets to know him and eventually only marries him after breaking up with Hae Sung. Arthur is played by veteran character actor John Magaro, most recently in the Kelly Reichardt films First Cow and Showing Up.
Years later, when Hae Sung comes to New York to visit Nora, Arthur must balance his jealousy with a desire to trust and support his wife. It all comes to a head in a remarkable scene between Nora and Arthur in bed, in which Arthur insists, “If this was a story anyone would tell, I’d be the evil white American husband telling you two apart.” Thanks to the song’s sharp and With an imaginative script and the superb performances of all three actors, Past Lives complicates this simple story in moving and surprising ways. When I spoke to Magaro, he was in a Los Angeles hotel room with his wife and daughter, who kept climbing on his lap and waving at the laptop camera. We discussed how his own marriage relates to Arthur’s, the joy of supporting someone else’s story, and Arthur’s novel entitled Boner. This interview has been edited and shortened for clarity.
Dan Kois: What did you think of Arthur when you first read the script?
John Magaro: I’ve often seen myself in Arthur. I saw parallels to what I was going through in my own life, with my own marriage. And I had never seen a character so close to me on the site.
The best of movies, series, books, music and more, straight to your inbox.
Forgive the question, but what about the character you are involved with?
Well, I’m married to a Korean-American woman, so that’s it. It’s about feeling like an outsider and that there’s a part of your partner that you’ll never fully understand. My wife is not an immigrant, but her parents were from Korea. My immigrant story is over 100 years old. So I don’t have that. I’m so deeply American at this point and don’t speak Italian. I don’t speak Hebrew. I don’t have that part of me anymore. And for my wife, this is still an enormous part of her life and experience as a minority woman in this country.
It’s strange that you don’t have full access to it. And seeing that in Arthur was just exciting for me to sublimate it in the film. I said it’s almost like getting paid to go to therapy, especially that scene in the bedroom. There is something real about this dialogue, but it is more poetic than the words I could ever come up with if I were trying to express it to my partner.
Have you spoken to Celine about this?
When I first met Celine, we mostly talked about our love for Brecht and epic theater and for Wallace Shawn and My Dinner With Andre. And we had a lot in common in our theater and film tastes and it was just clear that this was going to be a good collaboration.
Arthur appears to be a supporting role in the purest sense. The character supports the main actors, but they also support the film’s project. The film needs this white guy to tell this special story about Asian and Asian American life.
I really enjoy playing supporting roles. I consider myself a character actor in the truest sense of the word. John Cazale is one of my favorite actors. I love him. And I think it has something to do with being able to serve the story and being able to support the main characters and not in a way selfishly depriving them of the spotlight to really be able to serve the story. And it can be tough. Because you have to manage your expectations and really be there for the story and the other actors.
Did that aspect also appeal to you in some way, to empathize a little with a story that feels like someone else’s story?
Yes. I know there are many people in very similar relationships. When you have a partner or a wife or a husband or anything else, a deep, meaningful relationship, there will always be a part of it that you can never fully access or fully understand. That’s just the way it is.
But since this is an immigrant story, I also think the white male factor offers a way in. That’s important because cinema has been about the white male perspective for so long. So I think there is a subversive element in taking on the supporting role as a spectator of this immigration experience. Arthur acts in a way as the “typical” American viewer. I thought it was kind of cool to be able to take on this role.
And it really reflects the experience that many white people have had. I think you’re a little younger than me, but I grew up in the suburbs and didn’t meet that many non-white people. And so, throughout my adult life, I’ve tried to learn not to focus on every interaction—that I don’t have to be the center of every narrative.
To the right. Yes I think so. And I think as society is changing and we understand that there are other voices out there that need to be heard, I think it’s okay to share Arthur’s portrayal in this progressive, selfless capacity. I also think it’s nice that he’s fighting those feelings of jealousy, fear, frustration, and insecurity, but is able to deal with it in an adult, mature way.
I found it really moving about him that he’s obviously a good guy, a nice guy, but he’s jealous and a little bit petty at times. That is very understandable.
It would be wrong if he doesn’t, if he just totally agrees with everything.
“My amazing wife is with her ex-boyfriend all day. Great.”
If he were the Buddha and said, “It’s all right,” that would be absurd.
I want to come back to the scene you mentioned, the bed scene. Celine’s writing there really brings this issue to the fore. For me, it was a really generous moment in writing, like a gift a screenwriter gives to an actor who is in this somewhat unusual situation. Many versions of the story would not give the character this almost metatextual moment. It’s not exactly Brechtian, but it’s a little Brechtian.
No, I actually wanted to say it. I think you’re right when you say that the bedroom scene springs from a kind of Brechtian philosophy where they’re commenting on what’s going on in the story. And that scene was actually a late addition to the script in my opinion. I think it was really smart to add that scene and tell it that way because he’s a writer.
Did you meet Celine’s husband? the writer Justin Kuritzkes? Was that useful or not useful?
I did. Useful? I don’t know. I mean I think he’s a great guy. After I was cast, they came to live with me in Brooklyn. And our families got together and had dinner together and it was just nice to talk. It was nice to see them in a healthy relationship, two creative people who genuinely care about each other and are loving and supportive. And I’m glad I met him because I think he’s a great guy, probably the same way Hae Sung recognizes Arthur is a good guy.
The spider-verse spreads
Continue reading
The best part of the hideous new HBO show
50 years ago, the woman who started the true crime boom became friends with her colleague. His name was Ted Bundy.
The story behind the Flamin’ Hot Cheetos movie is a load of bullshit
Taylor Swift is still not your girlfriend
In order. In the film we see Arthur signing copies of his book Boner. What’s going on there? Please introduce me to Boner.
boners! I don’t have to pitch it. A version exists. Justin wrote a play called Asshole. So if you want to read what it’s all about, just find it.
I wrote a story a few years ago in which I made the oily cakes by First Cow. They were delicious. Are fatty cakes a staple of your diet these days?
Oh yeah! No, not a regular part. What about you?
now and then You really need honey or powdered sugar.
Cookie says that in First Cow too. Kelly gave me a cookbook — sort of like a Lewis and Clark cookbook — and I really worked through it. I drove my wife crazy because it was mostly stews in August.
[A voice from elsewhere in the room calls, “The stews!”]
That was her – she just chimed in. She said: “Now that’s enough with the stew. I can’t eat stew anymore.” I’m not a big dessert fan in general. So the oily pies never quite made it onto the meal plan of the week, but the stews can still sneak in every now and then. But they are good!