Dmitro Kuleba, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, speaks in this interview [cedida a EL PAÍS en el marco de la alianza de medios europeos LENA] his astonishment that the same politicians who were humiliated by Russian President Vladimir Putin are saying, like French President Emmanuel Macron, that Russia should not be humiliated. Kuleba accuses Germany of supplying arms to Ukraine.
Questions. Russia’s war against Ukraine lasts almost two and a half months. You and your President Volodymyr Zelenskyy seem convinced that your country can win the war. What makes you so optimistic?
Answer. We see that we are capable of fighting and also of winning. We also see that the arms shipments are flowing non-stop. We need three elements to achieve victory: resistance, character and fighting power of Ukraine; the supply of vital arms and sanctions against Russia. If all three factors come together, we will win this war.
P What would victory look like? President Zelenskyy is now even talking about retaking the territories that Russia captured in 2014.
R In war, everything can change in a single day.
P Because it’s a dynamic situation.
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R Yes, and the terms of negotiations are determined by the battlefield, and not vice versa. Now we are more confident in the fight, and so our stance in the negotiations has become tougher. If the situation on the battlefield reversed, Russia would be in a more favorable position.
P In other words, Ukrainian successes on the battlefield determine their position in the negotiations.
R Yes, but the problem is that Russia shows no willingness to make the negotiations real and substantive. And we see the offensive in the Donbass and the attacks in the Kherson region or the endless rocket attacks across the country. At the moment it doesn’t matter where in Ukraine you sleep. Even if you sleep 1,000 kilometers from the front lines, there is no guarantee that you will wake up alive the next day, because if a missile hits your city, anyone can become a target. It is quite clear that the Russians do not want to negotiate and prefer war. We, on the other hand, are ready to negotiate, but we are not ready to accept Russia’s ultimatums. If they force us into war, we will react.
P. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg says the war could last for months or even years. Can the Ukrainian army, the Ukrainian people and the country’s economy hold out that long?
R The most frequently asked question before the war was how long Ukraine could last against Russia. Some have given us 48 hours, others 72. Now the question is how many more weeks or how many months can we last. It’s good that people trust us more now than before the war, but we don’t ask ourselves that question. Because as a nation and as a sovereign state, we have no choice but to win this war at all costs. A loss would mean that Ukraine would cease to exist. Anyone who thinks that Putin would feel sorry for us is very wrong. Putin leaves us no choice but to fight for our existence. That’s why I would put the question differently: not how long can we hold out, but what will it cost to keep fighting. We are devastated in terms of lives, we have suffered war crimes, atrocities and casualties on the frontlines, but as a country we stand ready to face this deadly challenge because the stakes are high.
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P And how is the economic situation?
R The war has damaged our economy more than the Russian sanctions. Sanctions are very important and they work, but they will not stop the Russian war machine as long as Europe continues to buy oil and gas from Russia.
P In fact, Russia’s energy export revenues have increased because prices have risen.
R That is the question. The Russian budget has a surplus thanks to gas and oil. It is true that other sectors have enormous problems. This applies to retail and the defense industry. And although the Russian economy will be destroyed in the long term, in the short term it will be better off than ours. So we ask our friends and partners to help us financially and allow us to keep fighting.
P Why do you think Germany has been so reluctant to give up arms for months?
R I think you have to go back to the time before the war, when Chancellor Olaf Scholz made a really commendable effort to prevent it. Scholz called President Putin several times, and Putin assured him and President Macron, among other things, that he had no intention of attacking Ukraine. And when the attack took place, the chancellor and other leaders were shocked that Putin had lied to them. When Germany was confronted with such a blatant lie, with such a blatant political betrayal, a radical change of position took place. The foreign minister immediately announced a 180-degree turnaround on the armaments issue and a realignment with Russia. It was a fair and very welcome change, so I cannot complain that Germany is unable to take bold and necessary action because they have shown they are.
P Germany initially slowed down with the sanctions.
R Germany was initially more reserved than the others. However, I now see a significantly different attitude. It plays a strong, even leading, role in the oil embargo. If Germany wants to, it can find solutions and move forward. On the other hand, we are still in a phase of difficult decisions when it comes to weapons.
P Do you expect Germany to also support Ukraine’s candidacy for the European Union?
R Germany should also play a leading role. And I would like to understand why we are not making any progress in this regard. It’s not just about providing us with weapons. It is also about giving hope to the people of Ukraine that they are not only fighting for our own country and our right to exist as a nation, but also for a better future in which Ukraine is part of the EU. It’s not about immediate accession, but about gaining candidate status, which legally anchors Ukraine on the path to European integration.
P Put words into action.
R That is. Candidate status is just the beginning of a long process. We defend the European way of life and values in Ukraine because we want our country to be built on these values. We appreciate good words, but it would be nice if the EU would also secure us a place in its political arena. The only decision Ukraine can accept is granting candidate status. We don’t want half decisions anymore. This war is the result of half-hearted actions and decisions taken by all sides, including us, over the last few years.
P US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin redefined the goals of Western military aid. He said the aim was to devastate the Russian army so that it would not be able to start another war like the one in Ukraine for a long time. Is it a realistic goal?
R Why not? The Russian war machine must be stopped. We Ukrainians are the ones who try hardest because we sacrifice our lives and destroy the machines on our soil. Other countries can help us by supplying weapons and imposing sanctions to prevent the Russian defense industry from replacing destroyed heavy weapons with new ones of its own production.
P How does this fit with French President Emmanuel Macron’s statement that Russia must not be humiliated?
R One of the reasons for this war was that everyone was always trying to offer Putin a solution that would allow him to save face. When Putin launched the attack, he sent a clear message: I don’t need face-saving solutions. I am willing to cross borders, commit war crimes to achieve my political goals. When I hear again that solutions are to be found that protect Putin’s dignity, I am at a loss. What I ask these people is what else needs to happen for them to understand that Putin doesn’t need any of this, that he won’t respect them if they offer it to him. Putin has openly lied to Macron and said he will not attack Ukraine. Russia has humiliated all those who tried to prevent war. If the same people say again that we shouldn’t humiliate Russia, I can’t understand it.
P According to some reports, more than a million Ukrainians have been deported to Russia, including 200,000 children. What does Russia want with it?
R This is one of the most difficult subjects for me to talk about. What Russia is doing is a war crime because it is actually a forced deportation. At first it was propaganda to show that people were fleeing what Russia calls the “Kyiv regime”. You use people. Another reason for which I have no evidence at the moment, but which I dare to speculate, is that Russia, which is huge, lacks human capital. I say this because we see many Ukrainians being transferred to remote areas of the country and forced to settle there. Russia is trying to solve its lack of human capital with forced deportations.
P President Zelenskyy, your defense minister and you have been under enormous pressure these months to save your country from annihilation. No European politician had had such an experience since the Second World War. How do you deal with pressure?
R I smoke a cigar every evening. It’s my way of meditating. It helps me a lot. The other way to move on is a puppy from Mariupol that I adopted. When I leave the office, I play with him. In war, people and animals suffer. And there is a saying: if one life is saved, the whole world is saved. That gives me hope. The third element that allows me to move forward is the government teamwork. Staying in Kyiv through the darkest hours despite death threats, the President taught us what real courage is. That brought us closer together as a team: the president, his chief of staff, the prime minister, the speaker of parliament. We support each other to keep trying. When I see the task that the President is taking on, my fatigue is the least. I recharge my batteries and move on
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